Author Topic: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor  (Read 50121 times)

DarthNuno

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Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« on: July 07, 2008, 06:44:16 PM »
Got last week a new TV, in order to replace a dead 20 inch arcade monitor.

Well, this is not a stuff for US guys because brand new arcade monitors are so cheap in USA, but here in Europe, they are so expensive  :o :-\

OK so... in the shop called 'Carrefour' (In Belgium) I got this model for 150€  :arrow:



The details :



No pot, but you can access all the size/geometry setting in a hidden menu  :P Here's the trick to access it  :lol:  :arrow:

On the remote, push "M" and then the numbers "4 7 2 5"  :arrow:



Let's test it on a real setup  :arrow:



60 Hz, True RGB signal via Euro Scart Connector... perfect picture  :-*

DarthNuno

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2008, 08:37:24 PM »
Still available for sale :



...and of course, I got a new one today...once more  :roll:  ;)

Don't laugh... I'm sure it'll be very hard to buy new TV CRT like that very soon  :-\ Let's stock them  ;)

polaris

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2008, 09:59:39 PM »
wise idea to stock up.
brunos lair will need to be maintained over the years.

 :spaceace:
just keeping an eye on things

scr33n

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2008, 04:46:51 PM »
Hey Bruno ....

same thing at the same day  :lol: :spaceace:



same 20" TV with a different brand  DIGIHOME and BLUESKY (we know well this brand  :-* :lol:)



perfect image  :-* :-*




but hey .... the price ..... here in Italy....take a look.....:



99,90 EURO  :spaceace: :spaceace:

planning a trip to Italy  :lol: :wink:

.... Bruno, you're right , in 2009 CRT tube will disappear from the market  :'( :'( so .... STOCK UP STOCK UP  :pac:

CRT TUBES RULEZ !!!!!  :spaceace: :spaceace:


PROJECTS FROM SCRATCH:

Galaga - PacMan - Donkey Kong Red Cab - Track & Field Upright - Tempest - Burgertime - Gyruss - Defender - Track & Field Cocktail - Robotron 2084

RESTORATIONS:

Q*bert - Timber

Sonic 1992

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2008, 04:50:04 PM »
Great Idea.. If I were you, I'd stock away at least 20 !!   No Joke...   Especially for future games you find as well as replacement for future CRT failures.

The Digital Switch is coming very soon here, and CRT TVs are getting more scarce, Arcade Game companies are gradually switching to flat panel screens.

I've also heard there is only maybe one plant in Japan that is producing the worlds CRT's... Don't know if it's true, but I wouldn't doubt it.

The reality.... CRT's are very heavy and expensive to produce, while Flat Panels are getting soooo cheap and they're light as a feather compared to CRT's...

Definately would suggest stocking up a bunch Bruno!!   ;)

DarthNuno

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2008, 07:59:09 PM »
Yes... I'm 100% sure of that ... TV CRT won't be available very very soon  :ghost:  !!! Let's stock as many as possible  8)

I have 7 or 8 *spare* tv (5 brand new & boxed... not all of them on the picture)



By the way, have a look at the boxes... all the same... Altus... Manhattan ... Digihome... BLuesky ...I'm almost sure that all these TV are made by the same manufacturer !

 ::) :P ;D

...and I plan to buy more & more... Sonic, you're right... at least 20 would be perfect for the next 10 years  :P ;D

Argg... scr33n... only 99€ for you  :shock: ;) Wooww... don't hesitate... buy a lot of them  :o So cheap...  8)

JamesSS

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2008, 10:36:54 PM »
I bought a new one off ebay here in the UK last week. They are getting harder and harder to find and I am going to stock up on them as I find them. A few years ago they were in the supermarkets for £60 each and I wish I had bought a few then. I probably need around 20 to 25 for my needs but I don't think I will be able to find that many.

Of course there are plenty of used ones around and after the digital switch over there will be even more but used ones will be a last resort for me.

EvilDindon

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 02:06:39 PM »
Salut Darth Nuno !

Excuses-moi, mais je ne sais pas si on a le droit de parler français sur ce site.

Je te retranscris mon post sur gamoover, pour avoir plus de chances que tu y répondes rapidement :


Tout d'abord j'ai consulté avec beaucoup d'intérêt tous tes RT et toutes tes rénovations de bornes, t'est vraiment un dingo de l'arcade, tout comme moi !

Je suis un fou des tubes cathodiques et des signaux RVB 60 Hz ( ), et j'envisage de construire ma première borne qui sera une mini pac-man (mamifiée) à l'échelle 2/3 avec une TV sony 14 pouces achetée d'occasion et en parfait état à 30 € pas loin de chez moi (merci leboncoin)

J'ai quelques soucis de réglages de géométrie (je les postent dans ce topic qui me semblait le plus approprié ?)

J'ai fait plusieurs tests sur mes trois TV à tubes avec une config à base d'arcadeVGA1 en AGP, et un cable VGA-PERITEL RGB fabriqué maison. Mes téloches sont : une Sony KV-29FX20B (superbe tube trinitron plat), une thomson 21 pouces bon marché achetée 129 € à Carrefour, et ma petite dernière Sony Trinitron 14 pouces, que j'envisage de placer en vertical dans ma future mini pac-man.


L'image est nickel, "100 % Arcade accurate" comme tu le dis si bien. Toutefois, j'ai des problèmes d'overscan hyper gênants; surtout sur les côtés (ou en haut et en bas quant on pivote l'écran en position verticale). J'ai pourtant réussi à trouver pour les trois TV les codes techniciens, mais je n'ai pas réussi à trouver le paramètre qui m'intéresse : le réglage de la taille horizontale. Au niveau vertical, pas de problème, j'ai réussi à centrer l'image aux petits oignons, mais, horizontalement, l'image ne peut pas être étirée ou raccourcie (ce que je recherche) : je ne peux seulement la déplacer.

Ce problème est surtout embêtant pour les jeux en 288x224 (presque tous les Namco), où une bonne partie est tronquée : en jouant avec le horizontal shift, on peut se débrouiller, par exemple pour Pac Man, pour voir une partie des scores en partie haute et une partie des fruits et crédits en partie basse. Si je règle pour voir l'intégralité des fruits, les "1UP, HIGH SCORE" et "2UP" disparaissent en haut de l'écran, et vice-versa.

Sur les jeux en 256x224 (comme Donkey Kong), c'est moins grave, je peux prsque avoir tout l'écran (à 2-3 mm près, rien de méchant)

J'ai vu qu'avec tes fameuses TV Manhattan DIGIHOME et compagnie achetées à Carrefour, tu arrives à avoir sur Galaga l'ensemble de l'image : scores + bas de l'écran !

Comment fais-tu ! Y-a-t-il sur ces TV un paramètre dans le menu caché qui permet de modifier la taille horizontale ? Ou bien trifouilles-tu la platine de la TV (genre potentiomètre ou autre) ?

Si oui, je n'ai pas de bol, car sur 3 TV aucune ne permet de régler l'amplitude horizontale, mais juste la position.

Ou bien alors, est-ce un problème lié à l'ArcadeVGA ? Je vois en effet que tu utilises AdvanceMame et AdvanceMenu. Mais ma logique me fait dire que cela ne peut pas provenir de la carte graphique, puisqu'elles délivrent toutes les deux la même résolution.

D'avance Merci.

PS : J'adorerai visiter ta game room si un jour je suis de passage en Belgique. On est de la même génération, on devrait s'entendre ! Par contre, le Dr Pepper, je connais pas. Je crois qu'une binouze fera plus l'affaire !   

EvilDindon

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 10:15:25 PM »
Hi to all and to Darth Nuno

I  will try to translate my previous post in English, as I didn't know we were not allowed to speak other languages here.

I plan to build my first Mame cab using the pac_man (or galaga haven't chosen yet) cabinet plans at 66,67 scale.

Actually I have all the parts there : PC with ArcadeVGA cart, homemade vga to scart cable, controls and 14" Sony trinitron TV just bought used near my house.

All i need to do now is buying and working the wood (and some tools)... not very WAF in my case, but I'll try to do it someday ( ;D)

Even if the picture is "100% arcade accurate", as you say, I've got an overscan problem that is general on the 3 TV sets I tried at home / a sony KV29FX20B, a Thomson 21" bought new 4 years ago at carrefour, and the recent 14" sony one that is supposed to be in the cab.

I found for those TV's the service menu code on the net, and managed to size and center the screen vertically without any problem, but I can't see, in any menu, an horizontal size parameter.

Actually, the display is wider than the screen on both edges ; that results, particullary for namco's 288x224 vertical games like pacman or galaga, in a trunked image at top and bottom (the fruits ans scores are cut by more than half)

Nuno, did you had, with your "manhattan", "bluesky" or "digihome" TV's, to adjust the horizontal screensize ? Or is it good by default even for namco games ? I saw your galaga restoration, and the image is fullscreen with no overscan at all. :o :o :o

Thanx in advance for your response.

PS : Hope to see you someday if I come to Belgium. I'll drink a beer instead of Dr Pepper I think : in fact I never tasted it ! ;) ;) ;) ;)




« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 11:24:13 AM by EvilDindon »

EvilDindon

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 01:04:27 PM »
Here is some pictures to illustrate my words :

1/ 256x224 on the 14" Trinitron : oversan but still acceptable :





2/ 288x224 on the same TV : not acceptable : The 1UP HIGH SOCRE etc. disappear totally ! :




3/ 288x224 on the Thomson 21" TV : exactly same overscan ! :




EvilDindon

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2008, 01:58:15 PM »
Hi, just to tell you, if you didn't know yet, that we can still buy CRT TV's from Germany, here :

http://www.technikdirekt.de/main/fr/fernseher/roehren-tv-ab-46cm/645202/-/Article.html?

There are several models of 20-21" TV's (JVC and Grundig) from 129-149 €uros + 22 € port.

There are also 14" TV's 75-89 €.

The 21" JVC seems to be fine !
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 05:09:15 PM by EvilDindon »

DarthNuno

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2008, 06:54:30 PM »
Hi to all and to Darth Nuno

I  will try to translate my previous post in English, as I didn't know we were not allowed to speak other languages here.

Hello EvilDindon, and thanks to you for writing your post in English, so all friends here can read the thing too  ;) :oops:

Even if the picture is "100% arcade accurate", as you say, I've got an overscan problem that is general on the 3 TV sets I tried at home / a sony KV29FX20B, a Thomson 21" bought new 4 years ago at carrefour, and the recent 14" sony one that is supposed to be in the cab.


You've got the well know 'I want to have all the games in their native resolution, arcade accurate and fitting all the screen area... on the same monitor' problem with my AVGA  ::)
The best compromise would be the use of the AVGAres tool, that set all the games resolution... but I presume it's not the answer you want to hear isn't it ?  ::) :P

OK, let me explain how I proceed  :-*

Here's the chart :

1. What do I want to do :

a) A mame cab for playing all the games but I don't need controls that requires USB port or anything related to windows -> I go with a DOS advance Mame (I'll explain why using the DOS later)

b) The same mame cab but I want to use a spinner + trackball, maybe analog joystick, driving wheel, shifter, yoke or whatever that used an USB or windows drivers : I have no other choice than Windows because the drivers for the special controls

For both solution... I'll use an ArcadeVGA card because it's simply the best card to handle so different resolutions... of course, a compromise has to be done... How a horizontal monitor would be handle so many resolutions / orientations / frequencies and having the perfect display on your screen ?

2. No No No ... I have a dedicated game, the pcb is working but I just need to replace the broken monitor by a TV using a RGB scart connector :

In that case, I'm building a custom PCB to SCART adapter, and YES, on most recent TV you don't have a setting for the horizontal screen size.

It's not a problem at all for all my pcb, by example  :arrow:

Pleiads :



or Zaxxon by example  :arrow:



If sometime the horizontal position of the game is not good, I pick up an other TV and I always found a good one (I've more than 10 *brand new TV in boxed* here, and some second hand TV too  8)).

On exception : Rolling Thunder and the Manathan TV  :arrow:

(see the full post.)

As you can see, a small part of the game is missing on the left and right. I'm sure If I try with an other TV, I would have a different result, but at that time, I haven't an other TV to try with...  ::)
But guess what ? It's not a problem for me... because back in the Days, some game wasn't set correctly too ... so it's a kind of 'root' display IMO... and I love that too  ;) ;D :-*

OK, here the 'ULTIMATE setup' :

3.  I have a dedicated game, but the pcb is NOT working and I need to replace the broken monitor by a TV using a RGB scart connector and  I don't need special controls :

Go with Advance Mame DOS and the wonderful tool 'AdvanceCFG' that allows you to set the horizontal size perfectly, and because ... in my case ... I only need to emulate ONE game ... I'm sure the display game area will be perfectly set on the screen (See my Galaga, Donkey Kong or even Time Pilot by example). In addition you don't need an expensive ArcadeVGA... just a cheap ATI card (AGP recommend).

4.  I have a dedicated game, but the pcb is NOT working and I need to replace the broken monitor by a TV using a RGB scart connector and  I need special controls, like a yoke for Star Wars by example :

I've to go with Windows for the specials controls (Yoke on USB by example). Cheap ATI card are not the best option here, but it depends the nature of the game to emulate (Vector games need good CPU power). Of course, because it's an emulation and not the real board, the illusion of having the real thing MUST BE perfect... it means same frame rate, no lag... using same controls, same display (RGB). So I finally put the latest ArcadeVGA... and I use the ArcadeVGA resolution tool in order to have the best display for the game to emulate... and If it's not perfect, than I go with the parameters from the TV service menu... for a fine tuning  ;)

Nuno, did you had, with your "manhattan", "bluesky" or "digihome" TV's, to adjust the horizontal screensize ? Or is it good by default even for namco games ? I saw your galaga restoration, and the image is fullscreen with no overscan at all. :o :o :o

For the Pac Man, I'm using the NAMCO Classic Collection pcb and it fits perfectly the screen on a bluesky TV used  :arrow:



Regarding the Galaga, I'm using Advance Mame, and if it's not right like this (missing scores) :



...after changing the setting in advance mame (advj.exe if I remember well), it's perfect ...and accurate  :D  :arrow:



PS : Hope to see you someday if I come to Belgium. I'll drink a beer instead of Dr Pepper I think : in fact I never tasted it ! ;) ;) ;) ;)

Be me guest... when you want  :-*  :spaceace:

EvilDindon

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 01:35:25 AM »
Thanx DN for your very detailed and friendly answer !

So, when I summarize the thing, in my case I want a (mini) mamecab with a vertical TV thru scart RGB to play classics and some modern shoot'em up.

But, the service mode does not allow to set the horizontal size, only the position.

It results in some overscan, specially on 288x224 namco games.

So,if I understood you, my only solution is to use advancemame under dos, that will allow me to set the horizontal size perfectly ?

It means that I will not be able to use a spinner, right ?

3 last questions, and I stop bothering you :

1/ What program let you set this parameter, caus actually, you're talking about AdvanceCFG and advj.exe. I never used dosmame and dos programs in general, so i'm a little lost.

2/ Must I use the ArcdeVGA, even for a dos mamecab ? In fact I've got some spare graphics cards like an AGP geforce 2MX200 and a PCI SIS card, that should work with advancemame. (I read that if I use the ArcadeVGA with advancemame and advancemenu, I must not set the "arcade monitor" configuration, is it true ?)

3/ Does advancemenu contain the drivers for soundcards (like soundblaster)or onboard soundchips like realtek ?

Lastly, could you upload an image of the Dos+advancemame compact flash card that you used on some of your configuration ?

Thanx in advance,

Mike from france
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 02:04:14 AM by EvilDindon »

funkycochise

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Re: Brand new TV to replace old 20" monitor
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 05:44:37 AM »
all programs named advcfg and advj (did you mean advv by the way, as advj is intended for joystick support tests.
advancemame can work without any card, no need of arcade vga. advance has support for standard audio soundcard, and if you find the DOS driver of your on-board audio chipset, it should work. Verified with VIA AC97 and SIS modern chips.
For the purpose you want to use your cab, it's not a bad idea to go through advancemame. Maybe you can find useful tutorials on french gamoover board. Take a look also at easycab that may help you to easily install your DOS configuration.

If you don't know yet, and if you gfx cards is well supported, you can also use svga NT drivers provided with advancemame, windows edition.
it's a bit tricky to make it work but results are worth the pain :




advancemame under windows XP using old ATI rage pro video card.
OS supported : NT, 2000, XP (is it enough ?)
But as I said before, under windows it's far more difficult to get a stable set up than under DOS.


EvilDindon

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Horizontal overscan on TV's thru scart rgb ? : not a problem anymore !!!
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 01:08:35 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys.
Hey, you know what ?

I FOUND THE SOLUTION !!  :o :o :o

Actually, it was very simple, dunno why i never thought to do this ?

The solution is that I SET A RESOLUTION IN MAME THAT IS A BIT WIDER THAN THE NATIVE GAME's RESOLUTION

For example, for 288x224 games (Namco, etc.), I set the .ini file for each game the following resolution : 304x240 : AND IT FITS PERFECTLY THE SCREEN !!! (I'll post pictures later). Mame adds 8 blank lines at top and bottom of the game (speaking vertically, of course), so the overscan has no more effect !!!

For 256x224 games, I set the following resolution : 288x224.  Mame adds 16 lines at top and bottom. It results in a little blank space at top and bottom of the vertical games, but nothing really bothering. For a perfect result, a 272x240 resoltuion should be set, but ArcadeVGA's bios doesn't contain such a resolution. Do you know if we can add resolutions to ArcadeVGA ? (I read somewhere a windows registry manipulation to tweak the ati driver, but can not find it now ...)

Unfortunately, for namco games, my sony trinitron 14" TV that is intended to go to the cab don't like the 304x240 resolution, nor the 296x240 one : it cuts the left size of the pacman maze (top of screen in horizontal position), and playing with the vertical position paramter on the service mode has no effect.

On my 21" Thomson TV it works great, the left size is not cut, It's 100% perfect arcade accurate !!

So, it's only a Sony TV issue, and it's not a big problem.It means, also, that I can use windows mame with my ArcadeVGA, so I can install a spinner on the cab (for arkanoïd)
 

I've got 2 solutions to workaround the "sony" trouble :

1/ Buying another 14" TV (not a trinitron this time)
2/ Setting the namco games to the following resolution : 321x240

I think I'll go for the 2nd option, caus It's a good compromise : the maze fits perfectly the screen both vertical and horizontal, but there is a blank space at top and bottom of the game (about 1 cm).

Hey DN, for your Rolling thunder overscan, You should try to set 304x240 like I did for my vertical games : You'll see, the game will fit perfectly the screen !!, as mame will add 8 blank lines on both sides !

But I dunno if your Rolling Thunder cab is based an the original PCB or a PC+Advancemame configuration. Maybe If you're a purist, you may go for the PC+advancemame to replace the original PCB, and to have a fullscreen no overscanned game.

Cheers,

Mike.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 05:17:24 PM by EvilDindon »