Author Topic: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !  (Read 21575 times)

level42

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Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« on: April 28, 2011, 09:56:43 PM »
OK people.

We all know the story.

Many people in the hobby suggest replacing all caps in about all electronics we come across in our hobby. With good reasons of course. Electrolytic capacitors (often shortened as caps, or as we say in Holland Elko's) _CAN_ dry out over time and loose (partly) their function.

Yes, even I was always replacing caps like nuts on everything I came across. But as soon as my first cap-kits from a certain well known supplier arrived, I got some doubts.
The delivered Xicon caps felt extremely light and looked cheap. Of course, just like with everything, people will vary in opinion, but I've searched the internet, and generally Xicon is not considered as being a top brand cap maker.
Still, I have done several PCB's (like the one's in my SW cockpit) and others. Yes they work OK (mostly), but it didn't feel right somehow to take out the Nichicons (yes old, but one of the top cap brands) and replace them with the Xicons...

Also note that cap producers build various lines of products, each with their "target" use. Some are simply better than others.

So, the alternative was to shop at RSonline for good brand caps. Panasonic sounded trusty enough, and also Rubycon and Nichicon were available. I steered clear from the RS (own) brand for the same reasons as not wanting the Xicons.

Now.....I had made a list of caps that I was going to need to replace for my Asterock. Pretty soon (also because of minimum quantities you must order, like 5) I had reached an amount of almost 50 Euro's. Yes I selected all good quality brands and 105 degr. versions, but still that's a considerable amount of money.

Another factor. I've got a number of game PCB's, PSU's, and even monitors (f.i. the very old Sanyo in my Nintendo cab) that are still running the old caps and they simply look GREAT.

I've also done some measuring in the past around an original Atari Big Blue and there was virtually 0 ripple voltage over it, indicating it was still running fine....


Now...of course lots of these caps are 30 years old. So.....what I wanted is a quick and simple way to KNOW if I should replace a cap, or not.

A general DVM (or multi-meter as wel call it) is useless if it already HAS a capacitance tester. What this does is simply measure the capacitance, and even IF it gives (about) a good indication, that's not really that important and not an indication if an electrolytic capacitor is still OK. (Check capacitance values, they already have a 20% margin in their value from the factory !).

Now what we DO want to know is the ESR, or in other words the Serial resistance of the cap. Now you cannot measure this with a normal Ohms meter, because it's a cap....

Some time ago, there was a smart bloke from Australia (Bob Parker) who invented a cheap ESR meter that was affordable for everyone, but still very useful.
His name is Bob Parker. IIRC the meter was published by a magazine and thus a kit to be build. Later all kind of companies produced them in different ways: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

The principal is that a 100 kHz frequency is sent through the cap, and this signal is analyzed to know the ESR value.

Anyway, two versions of this meters were pretty interesting. One is from Russia:
http://www.radiodevices.ru/esr/esr4.htm

This one has some very good specs and I really like some features like the test socket on the device itself. It's also quite cheap.

However, they have had delivery problems of parts fort the past couple of months and I don't really want to wait any longer.

So.....I ordered this one:
http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html




This is readily available. There are even some Dutch distributors but one only delivers to companies and the other was simply more expensive than ordering directly at the manufacturer....

This one also has excellent specs and features and it looks very professionally built. One of the best features is that it discharges caps should they have any load left. This makes it not necessary to discharge them all before measuring which saves a lot of time.

Anyway, as soon as I receive it I will do some measuring on new and old caps and publish some results here.

I think this is a good investment that will earn itself back in a very short time.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 09:58:16 PM by Level42 »

Superully

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2011, 10:50:35 PM »
sounds cool, but can you use it on caps which are still in circuit?
all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2011, 10:53:14 PM »
Yes indeed you can (in most cases) that's one of the big plusses ! :D

Here are the features as copied from the mentioned site:

Features
Measure capacitance and ESR.
New enhanced dynamic range of 0.00 to 40.0 ohms.
ESR Resolution as fine as 0.01 ohms!
Supports capacitors from 1uF to 22,000uF.
Capable of In-Circuit measurement of ESR.
Polarity free, connect any way round.
Protected against highly charged capacitors.
Great for low DC resistance checking too (such as PCB short checking).
Supplied complete with 2mm male test leads and 2mm compatible gold plated crocs.
Test leads are ultra-durable and 45cm (18") long with 2mm plugs.
Enhanced software compensation of cable resistance.
Complete with comprehensive user guide.
Capacitor reference table included.
Tests at the industry standard 100kHz.
Long life alkaline battery fitted.
Just 100mm x 70mm x 20mm

Q*ris

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2011, 11:09:37 PM »
Thanks for all the detailed info and the links, Andre. Very interesting indeed.

Etienne MacGyver

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2011, 11:21:39 PM »
Sounds like a cool device, and "in-cirquit measuring" is indeed a very big + !

the more simple variants are not capable of doing that, which is fine if you like to spend time soldering every cap out  ;D

And indeed it will earn itself back if you need to "cap" alot, i mean your current list already reached 50€ so imagine if you only need to replace 3 caps instead of 20+  per project..
and im not even yet talking about the time you spend with replacing "working" caps..
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 11:24:54 PM by Etienne »

Superully

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2011, 11:22:24 PM »
makes it extremely interesting. already looking forward to your test results, andré!
all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2011, 11:54:16 PM »
F....... I just got a reply from Mike from Russia that they have a couple of their 4.0 in stock now....rats.....

Cancelling the Atlas right away....

Do note that the Russian doesn't have auto-discharging BUT it does have a much nicer price-tag at 75 DOLLARS (about 50 Euro's with current rate !!!) Delivered at your home world-wide....

RATS !! I was just an hour too impatient  :evil: :evil: at myself.


Superully

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2011, 07:28:30 AM »
F....... I just got a reply from Mike from Russia that they have a couple of their 4.0 in stock now....rats.....

great news! i need to get one as well once it has successfully passed the L42QC (level 42 quality control)!
all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

Dazza

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2011, 08:45:37 PM »
I'm looking at capping my Rygar board (finally got one!) as it has developed a sound fault after about an hour of playing with it!

Will be very interested in your results.

level42

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2011, 10:43:35 PM »
Mmm, well I guess everybody in the UK was having a holiday today, no reply to my cancellation e-mail. But I thought, what the hell, and also ordered the Russian version.

Still planning on canceling the ESR70 though, unless anybody wants to buy that one from me...


polaris

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2011, 04:32:17 AM »
Mmm, well I guess everybody in the UK was having a holiday today


yep, its a bank holiday on monday too,
just keeping an eye on things

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 07:54:02 AM »
Will be very interested in your results.

Same for me  8)

Very interesting topic, André   :)

level42

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2011, 08:52:04 AM »
Mmm, well I guess everybody in the UK was having a holiday today


yep, its a bank holiday on monday too,
Damn.....so it was bank holiday last friday, or was everybody free for "the wedding"?

 

Superully

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2011, 09:04:09 AM »
or was everybody free for "the wedding"?

what wedding? ;) 8)
all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!

polaris

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Re: Replacing Caps, yes or no....I don't want to doubt anymore !
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2011, 07:30:34 PM »
Mmm, well I guess everybody in the UK was having a holiday today


yep, its a bank holiday on monday too,
Damn.....so it was bank holiday last friday, or was everybody free for "the wedding"?

 
it was a special bank holiday so people could celebrate the wedding, most people were off work
just keeping an eye on things