Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: Digimon on March 31, 2012, 01:34:24 PM
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Hi,
I try to rebuild one of my Zaccs in the next month (so my wife will let me do that).
now I start with theoretical stuff. (I never made a rebuild before;-))
It's about my Cab from Ebay, with a Hantarey MTC900 in:
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/small/Foto_448x600.jpg)
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/small/IMG_0554_448x600.jpg)
I've pulled of some parts, and now is my question about the power supply:
It look rotten, and there is no power on it;-)
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/small/IMG_0555_800x598.jpg)
so what to do with it? Is it realistic to repair it? or is better to change it to something new.
Has someone documentation about spare parts?
I also have an US250 Hantarex Power Supply which to my mind can do the job, but I am not sure.
Has someone made such a change before? or an shematic from the us250
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/small/IMG_0143_800x600.jpg)
I found a photo of an universal Zacc with an US300 in.
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/small/Netzteil-.jpg)
thanx
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You can find the manual at Speleo_DE's/Andreas' site:
http://www.andysarcade.de/gen_unicab.html
Under Power Supplies.
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I've been there a thousand times;-) but never seen it.
thanks
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Depending on what you prefer, i can help you with the rotten PS.
If you want as original as posible, you need to rebuild / clean / fix the old, which is not too hard i think.
as for the hantarex, then you probably need to modificate your harness and find the correct connectors to use in that
I have a spare original ps, and can make a guide to folow if to determine where the problem might be
i think it a fuse problem if there is no power at all,
I first also was looking for a simular problem, and all the fuses where ok i thought...
Which i did not know at that time is that there is also a fuse inside of the voltage selector, and not only in the "standard" fuseholders that you see on the ps unit.
So check that first, and then i can check what power you need to have on the other side of the transformer.
so it up to you, if you go for the rotten, i can take my spare and do some measurements in different spots.
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You should probably keep the original one, as Etienne said, it is quite easy to repair it, there are just a few capacitors and transistors inside.
The original is also more reliable, I have tons of these cabs and only once had a problem with a power regulator (MA 7812 UC).
I also have a cab with the same Hantarex psu, I had to repair it about 10 times in the last 3 years. ;)
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sound like I should try to repair, before changing.
when I am back from holiday (starting tommorow) I will begin with cleaning and see if I can fix it with your help.
may it can be a good photo-lovestory about me and my PS.
CU
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I've been there a thousand times;-) but never seen it.
thanks
I think that page is often overlooked because in the menu it says "Universal Cabs (German)", but this flag doesn't cover the entire "load" on that page because it also has schematics and docs for a huge range of (mostly Euro) monitors and other nice stuff :)
The Hanti cap-lit lists and cap maps are brilliant too. Maybe a menu item like "Technical docs" or something like that is a better idea Andreas ?
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You should probably keep the original one, as Etienne said, it is quite easy to repair it, there are just a few capacitors and transistors inside.
The original is also more reliable, I have tons of these cabs and only once had a problem with a power regulator (MA 7812 UC).
I also have a cab with the same Hantarex psu, I had to repair it about 10 times in the last 3 years. ;)
The 250 and 300 are switching power supplies and thus more suspicious to failure compared to the conventional PSU you already got there. Conventional PSU's are much easier to repair and once fixed are very reliable. The reason why switching power supplies appeared was that they are much more energy efficient. That is nice if your cab is running all day or maybe even 24/7 in an arcade BITD, but if you just play your game occasionally the difference isn't that important. Plus keeping things as original as possible is one of the higher goals in this hobby. That PSU can be brought back to very nice condition for sure, but it will take a lot of work...
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The Hanti cap-lit lists and cap maps are brilliant too. Maybe a menu item like "Technical docs" or something like that is a better idea Andreas ?
Due to the pages being static, I would need to update ~100 pages. I will consider this with the next major change.
Until then you just can use Google: "andysarcade.de us250"
Andreas
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Okay, i did some research and tried to document the PS i have here and some basic trouble shooting.
The general setup of the Power supply:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/1.jpg)
The transformer used by Zaccaria is a isolation transformer and a normal transformer in one.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/2.jpg)
the pictures are very "selfexplaining" i think, so if nessecary, i can adjust this post with answers to your questions.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/3.jpg)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/4.jpg)
These are the connectors with the numbers from the schematics and seen "from above"
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/5.jpg)
First check if the mains cord works
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/6.jpg)
Then measure these points to see if you have power, if not, check the main fuse.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/7.jpg)
its inside the selector..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/8.jpg)
this is the 120v line for the monitor comming from the isolation transformer.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/9.jpg)
If you got a 220 volt monitor, use this connection, which is also comming from the isolation transformer.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/10.jpg)
I drew some red arrows to the corresponding fuses.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/11.jpg)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/12.jpg)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/13.jpg)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/14.jpg)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/15.jpg)
And to make it complete, a schematic of the pcb which regulates the raw AC current into DC output.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/16.jpg)
And a component layout schema:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/17.jpg)
This should bring you a bit on your way
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Very nice tutorial with great pics Etienne, it will be very useful for Zacc owners. ;)
The only weak points of this sytem are the 3 power regulators, marked RG1, RG2 and RG3, but it is an easy fix. ;)
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Yeah, but they dont fail that often IF you use proper cooling.
I have seen the temperatures rise very high with the fan disconnected.
(that fan causes the "whobbely" (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2706.msg35446#msg35446) screen remember..)
So the best is to replace the "refrigerator fan" with a big PC fan like this :
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wlgfAO2Jtls/0.jpg)
You need to "steal" some power from the 12v line though, as the original fan is running on 220V.
(CN2 pin 9 & 12)
As for the regulators, they are cheap to replace :D
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You are reading my mind, I just wanted to replace that big monster fan with the same pc equipment and I didn't have an idea where to connect. :D
Thanks my friend. ;)
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Yes, it does not require alot of current, so "borrowing" it from the PS will not hurt i think.
And if you worry about that, you can always plug an adapter in the wall socket where the marquee lamp is connected:
(http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00rCETmQIPOpcF/AC-DC-Adapter-12V-ADPV60-ADPV100-500-.jpg)
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I would never put a 12V fan on it because:
1) it will load the +12V extra and thus creates even more heat.
2) on start up the fan will make a surge on the 12V output that the rest of the electronics that use the +12V may not really like....
3) 12V fans move a LOT less air than 230VAC one's
4) if the fan ever fails it could mess up the electronics that is using the +12V
Why not simply use a 230VAC one ?
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although you have good points, this is probably why not ;D
And even that 4,95 is avoidable if you salvage one from an old PC
not to mention the Db value..
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Those hardly produce the same airflow my friend, apples and pears. A fan is not just a fan.
You will have to take a look at the airflow produced by the original fan. The Papst you indicate (which is the Rolls Royce under the fans and hence so expensive) produces 160 m3/hour while that 12V one does only 61 m3/hour, that is a huge difference.
But even if the airflow would be sufficient, you have to realize that a fan is not something that gives a constant load. The resistance that it gets from the surrounding air varies, and thus the current drawn also varies. This makes the 7812 have to work hard to keep outputting a stable 12V for the electronics that uses it.
Also, just to stick to your example, the average current used by that fan is 0,35A. The 7812 can handle a maximum current of 1,5 A. So using that fan you will only have 1, 15A AVERAGE left for the electronics. If the electronics alone draw something like 1,25A the 7812 is getting into trouble keeping up the voltage at 12V, you may even fry it over the long run.
It is just not a good idea to run fans from the power source that is also used for the PCB electronics.
So your suggestion for a separate PS would be better, but these cost money too...
There are much cheaper 230VAC fans while still a good brand like Sunon.
http://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/axial-fans/5440302/
plus....you as an IT guy should be able to get some of old server racks ;);)
I scored a couple on our yearly flea-market for close to nothing.
About dB value: if the fan is too noisy you either
1) did not turn up the game sounds loud enough (like my SW cockpit)
2) did not turn the 80s music loud enough
;D ;D ;D
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I did not say that i was not able to get the 220 variant for free ;)
As for the last two aguments, i totally agree with you ;D ;D ;D
But i am sure that the cooling that the 60 m3/hour 12 volt fan delivers will be enough for this particulary PS.
especially compared to that monster of a fan that is in there now, i dont believe that that fan is producing the 160 m3 /hour capacity that you specify either.
In combi with an old (read free) adaptor in the already existing outlet it will also not compromise the 12 volt line from the PS.
I do agree that you got correct arguments though.
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Thanx guys for the great tutorial.
I am skiiing right now;)
But when i am back in germany i will start with the repair of the old PS!!!!
Cu
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so, back from skiing.
I measured the transformer side. Everything looks alright. (after replacing some fuses).
Tommorow I startup with complete cleaning.
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I am nearly ready with cleaning and repair:
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/Small/IMG_0647_800x598.jpg)
I have to build some new stickers for the transformer side;-) (photos coming when ready)
but I have trouble with the CN1 connector
anyone knows where to get a new one?
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/Small/IMG_0644_800x598.jpg)
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/Small/IMG_0645_800x598.jpg)
greetings
Digimon
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:o :o :o what a difference !
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Looks awesome. ;)
What is the problem with that connector?
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yeah, i was asking myself the same question..
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the two 10,5VAC cables are broken (in the connector)
I can't manage to get the cable-clips out of the connector to fix them (the connector is melded there).
So to my mind it's better to add a complete new connector.
but it's not so easy to find a similar one.
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....
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i can trade my spare cable for yours.
Its the cable between the transformer and the PD circuitboard if i am not mistaken.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/3.jpg)
I do want yours in return, so at least i have the other connectors ;)
Also i am going to print some vinyl etikets soon, so if you want them professionally printed on vinyl, let me know..
Postal and etiket costs are ofcourse for you.
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thanks for the offer Etienne!
I will try to fix it myself, I think now that I know the parts I will get them. (I found a shop in Bremen)
Bu yinyl stickers would be great for sure. Do you need photgraphs from mine?
Digi
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I dont think i need them, since i got a spare PS here ;)
I will scan that and recreate the labels.
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so I made a flying cable to do some measurements.
there seems to be a problem at -5V
the +5V seems ok, it's adjustable from 5V to 9.8V.
+12V was a problem I fixed it.
anyone has an idea?
(http://proe-wildfire.de/Zac/Power_supply/wrong_voltages_2.JPG)
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Its not having something connected ? in that case it could be normal.
I can check the outputs of my spare PS tomorow as comparation.
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Did the measurements for you today..
The connector has 6 pins:
1= -5V
2= +5V
3= +12V
4= unregulated - rectified output
5= Ground
6= Ground
Pin 1 & 5-6:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/sec1.jpg)
Pin 2 & 5-6:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/sec2.jpg)
Pin 3 & 5-6: (11,81)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/sec3.jpg)
Pin 4 & 5-6:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/sec4.jpg)
Depending on the game you want to power, you may need to replace the 7905.
i mean, if the board you want to run in there does not use any -5v, you can just leave it like this.
What happens if you put a load on the -5v line ?
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Just stumbled over a pic that shows that the TO3 version of the 7812 is replaced by a TO220 version.
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I've read at CONRAD:
"Achtung! Es kann vorkommen, dass bei Negativ-Längsreglern ohne Last am Ausgang die gemessene Spannung vom Sollwert abweicht. Eine Belastung ab ca. 10 mA beseitigt diesen Effekt, und die gewünschte Ausgangsspannung stellt sich ein."
that means:
"Attention! It is possible that in negative controls without longitudinal load on the measured voltage output from the setpoint. A load from about 10 mA abolished this effect, and the desired output voltage is adjusted."
so I think when there is load it should be ok.
I am on cleaning the CAB right now, and fixing the Hantarex Chassis, (looks like the power supply).
I hope to put it together soon.
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Thanks Digimon, for pointing me to this topic, I have totally missed it, but it is very useful for me. Thanks Etienn,e for the info and photo´s.
I´m a total electrical noob, so I hope that you don´t mind asking:
1. on reply #9, first photo: where is the ´rainbow´ cable for?
2. reply #20, first photo: how is this circuit board called (PD board?) an what does it do? It´s not present in my Vanguard cab.
3. I know what a transformer is, but what is an isolation transformer?
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Thanks Digimon, for pointing me to this topic, I have totally missed it, but it is very useful for me. Thanks Etienn,e for the info and photo´s.
I´m a total electrical noob, so I hope that you don´t mind asking:
1. on reply #9, first photo: where is the ´rainbow´ cable for?
2. reply #20, first photo: how is this circuit board called (PD board?) an what does it do? It´s not present in my Vanguard cab.
3. I know what a transformer is, but what is an isolation transformer?
1. thats the powercable that goes to the MTC 900 Monitor
2. thats the powersupply board (the other is just the transformer and fuses) ;)
I suspect that it was 1. not sufficient for the use they wanted to use it for, 2. broken and removed for that reason.
As you look good, it only takes the 220 volts line to the new switcher that you have in there, and they cut the other wires.
another posibility is since also you rainbow cable was not connected, is that the transformer is dead, and they replaced it complete.
Anyway, as stated in the other thread, i got a complete spare set (harness, psu, transformer and fan) so if youre interested, you can have it.
I would like to have the harness that is inside there now to rebuild though.
3. An isolation transformer is nothing more than a normal transformer but it does not transformate, it just separates the power from the mains.
so you have 220 going in and 220 going out. mainly used for safety reasons.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheidingstransformator (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheidingstransformator)
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Thanks Etienne, I gladly accept your offer for the spare set. :spaceace: Maybe we can exchange it for my harness during our next Eurocade meeting.
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This is a great thread - did you spot the lovely unconnected 110V input tap on the transformer ;D
Paul.
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I guess you are reffering to this pic:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/zaccPS/4.jpg)
Because if you look at the side where the wires are at the transformer, they dont show.
The voltage selector in there is only connected to the 200-245 range
so if you make a 100 range selection, its not working :D
it could be rewired ofcourse if there are indeed tabs on the transformer, but mine just has the wires comming out instead of tabs..
and i dont see any 110 volts input wires..
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Vanguard%20Refurbishment/CIMG2311.jpg)
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I'm hoping it's in there somewhere...
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I hope that too for you, otherwise you need some step up transformers :-\
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My warehouse here has a 240V commercial supply ;D
But yes, outside of my own place I'll have to figure something out. I have a few step ups to start with.
Paul.