Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: c0dehunter on July 17, 2012, 07:02:06 AM
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Hello All!
OK, I am about to make a custom cable in order to connect a Sony PVM-2030 (with 25pin connector) to a modern PC's VGA (15pin), and use MAME and other emulators (currently I am connecting my Commodore 1084S-D1 and it looks great!)
The VGA to 25pin schematic table is as follows:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7588179296/in/photostream/lightbox/
The table comes from this forum post, however the actual diagram is INCORRECT:
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4028.0
I was determined to make a CORRECTED diagram, so I made this diagram instead:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7588180386/in/photostream/lightbox/
The question that I have is this:
In the original table, it states that pins 15 to 24 are GROUND (corresponding to pins 6,7,8,10 on Sony's 25pin connector in the back). Do I need 10 (ten!) cables to ground these pins?
I can solder pins 6, 5, 4, 3, and 11 (R, G, B, H-Sync, V-Sync) but I am not sure about Ground pins.
Would you kindly let me know what pins (how many cables!) I need to ground?
also why the person who posted this table (RGB32E), states that: "The only pin you could optionally ground is pin 2 - audio select."
Any help regarding grounding those pins are much appreciated!
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I think if you solder a wire over all those pins will do fine
it could be that its internally connected also all together, but i think one wire will be fine and just interconnect all the stated pins.
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Etienne, thanks for responding to my question!
OK, the thing I am not sure is this: I thought it is easy to connect this Sony PVM-2030 to a VGA, by connecting RGB, V and H sync and GROUND. In these forums, they talk about Composite sync and an ADDITIONAL device which combines the H and V signals:
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4028.msg32178#msg32178
User RGB32E states that:
"The PVM-2030 doesn't accept separate sync when analog RGB signals are used. A sync combiner is required to convert RGBHV to RGBS.
The PVM-2030/2530 don't actually accept separate sync signals when analog signals are used. You'll need a device (extron RGB interface) or circuit (ask google) to convert the separate sync signals into composite sync (RGBHV to RGBS)?"
I think he is talking about connecting various real gaming consoles (SNES, SEGA GENESIS, etc) to this monitor. But all I am trying to do is EMULATION: using a modern PC and playing games using MAME and other emulators. For this purpose, I need to make a DB25 (Sony) to DV15 (VGA) custom cable and connect Sony PVM-2030 to my modern PC. My video card can send a 15KHz video signal using Soft 15KHz software (I am playing emulator games right now, connecting my PC to my Commodore 1084S-D1 and it looks great!)
Additionally I know this guy also was able to connect his Sony PVM-2030 to his PC without any sync composite device:
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4656.0
The more I think about it, the more convinced I am, that the reason RGB32E was talking about composite sync on Sony PVM-2030s is because he thought I was going to connect real game console this monitor.
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i would just try it and see if you got image
you can try to combine h and v sync by simply put them together, and try AFAIK
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Hey,
we`ve made in the arcadezentrum a little helper called UMSA.
http://www.arcadezentrum.com/forum/showthread.php?12417-umsa-1000&highlight=umsa
Finally we had a neat little PCB and I put it to my shop
http://wp1114205.wp150.webpack.hosteurope.de/xtcmodified/product_info.php?products_id=57
Take look at the sync strike, too. I thas a screw terminal breakout for signals coming from SCART RGB plus a DB15 HD vga style output.
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Well, thanks for the reply but my Sony PVM-2030 is a NTSC model and does not feature SCART (I live in North America). As for the forums, it seems informative, but unfortunately it is in German and I don't speak the language! :-[
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You don't have SCART, but I just checked the Sony PVM-2030 manual and it has both analogue and digital RGB inputs.
The analogue one's are the same function as SCART RGB would provide....
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Here's the manual: http://www.esmo.com/catalog/PVM2030.pdf
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You don't have SCART, but I just checked the Sony PVM-2030 manual and it has both analogue and digital RGB inputs.
The analogue one's are the same function as SCART RGB would provide....
Thank you so much for your response. Do you know how can I make a custom cable 15pin VGA to 25pin Sony?
This is a diagram that I made based on table provided by the user named RGB32E
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7588180386/in/photostream/#/photos/48901682@N02/7588180386/in/photostream/lightbox/
I am not sure when I tell the person who is about to make this cable for me how to make it, If I have him solder R, G, B, H-Sync, V-Sync, Ground, will that be suffice?
Thanks so much for your time!
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Looks like you miss the ground in that picture..
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Yup, it looks correct to me apart from the Grounds. Depending on your cable, there will be grounds for each of the colors and also for the sync signals. Commect them all to a pin between 15 and 24 on the monitor connector. I am assuming you at hacking p a standard VGA cable as that would be the easiest way (that way the VGA side is already correct.
It will also probably work if you hook up just one ground HOWEVER, the grounds in the cable are used to shield the signals so they don't interfere with eachother, so you may have a worse picture than possible so that's why you should hook up all the grounds that are in the VGA cable.
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http://pinouts.ru/Video/VGA15_pinout.shtml
Bridge all grounds as Level42 said. connect one gnd between the connectors.
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Thank you so much, one quick questions: what does the user in other forum means when he says that I have to combine V and H signals to make a composite one? (my video card can already send a 15Khz signal via Soft 15Khz to my Commodore 1084S-D1 CRT monitor)
"you need to convert horizontal sync and vertical sync into composite sync, as a PVM-2030 won't accept separate syncs when feeding analog RGB."
I really appreciate your comments, you are the best!
p.s. hey bencao74, I love your blog and website, very interesting stuff! keep it up!
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http://pinouts.ru/Video/VGA15_pinout.shtml
Bridge all grounds as Level42 said. connect one gnd between the connectors.
No.....that is +not+ what I said. That would very likely work but you won't have every color signal separately shielded this way....you may get away with it with 15kHz CGA signals but anything higher and you will get interference....it is best to hook up ALL the ground WIRES from the cable to one pin each...
But it all depends on the used cable...
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Thank you kindly for your posts. How do I make a "composite" H and V signal then? Apparently, I can simply connect them, somehow they need to be made into a "composite" form:
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?4774-25-pin-D-sub/page2&s=400b38312173d2901c016044cede0409&highlight=Sony
"I thought you needed some sort of magical logic chip to combine H and V sync?"
ou'd need to divide the H sync and combine them to get composite sync, I think you can divide Hsync with a D-type flipflop.
As you know, my video card is already compatible with Soft 15KHz (connected to my 1084S-D1 monitor)
Any help on H and V signals is greatly appreciate!
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I`ve lost a good link ;)
But for first just solder them together. Should work. On the UMSA I use 4060 IC plus some elkos. But this is a overkill for your needs.
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I`ve lost a good link ;)
But for first just solder them together. Should work. On the UMSA I use 4060 IC plus some elkos. But this is a overkill for your needs.
Hello bencao74,
Thanks for your message, I really appreciate it! Yes, I am going to just solder them and see what happens. Another option is that I have a good, unused 25pin (one end male, other is female) so I can cut it and connect (and match!) its wires to a cut ready made VGA cable.
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OK, I found a local solder-guy who make me this cable, but when I connected it, this is what I got:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688576136/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688574312/in/photostream/lightbox/
In reality, the above image should look like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688572754/in/photostream/lightbox/
But looks like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688574312/in/photostream/lightbox/
These are the images of the 15pin (VGA) solder work:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688571564/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688570620/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688570024/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688569412/in/photostream/lightbox/
These are the images of the 25pin (Sony PVM-2030) solder work:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688568768/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688568128/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688566900/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688566216/in/photostream/lightbox/
Both connectors together:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688565432/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688577078/in/photostream/lightbox/
Diagram
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7588180386/in/photostream/lightbox/
Everything seems to be in order, but I am not sure why I get a distorted image. I even tried it with another computer (which has a compatible Soft 15Khz video card) and had the exact result, so it must be the wiring.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
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My first suggestion is to put the pics directly in the posting....when you have the picture on Flickr, click Share, then click Grab the HTML/BBC code. Then select all the text in the box and copy that in the thread, like this:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8011/7688576136_c632937af9_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688576136/)
001 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688576136/) by c0dehunter (http://www.flickr.com/people/48901682@N02/), on Flickr
This will show the pic right in the thread which makes it a lot easier to know what you mean... :)
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Is the picture stable like that or does it also move ?
It definitly is a sync issue. Did you try adjusting the horizontal sync of the monitor ?
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Juat checked the manual and it seems you only have a horizontal control for DIGITAL RGB, not Analog, but I would try it anyway.
Also make sure the switch on the lower back panel "Sync on Green" if OFF....
(See manual page 6 andp 7)
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These are the images of the 15pin (VGA) solder work:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688571564/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688570620/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688570024/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7688569412/in/photostream/lightbox/
I `m not sure about the connector. You referenced in the schematic a VGA DSUB 15 hd connector with rgb on 1,2,3. Your soldered one has the rgb on 3,4,5, nor?
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Is the picture stable like that or does it also move ?
It definitly is a sync issue. Did you try adjusting the horizontal sync of the monitor ?
Thanks for your message. The picture moves a bit and as you see is distorted.
when it is OFF, I get NO picture at all. When I turn it to ON, I get the image, but as you can see, it is distorted.
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If you have the switch OFF and NO picture then the monitor is NOT getting the Sync signal.
When you switch it to ON it will try to Sync to the Green signal, but because this doesn't HAVE sync included, you see what you see now....
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@Bencao: remember that this is at the video card side, not the monitor side, so the pins are soldered correctly.
One idea:
I see you didn't connect pin 10 of the VGA connector. This is the GND for both Sync signals. Simply bridge that to the other grounds and see if that helps.
The switch "Sync on Green" really MUST be off.
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OK, I manage to have the person who originally made me the cable, also make the small circuit and implement it right in the 25pin housing, and guess what? It WORKS! It is a beauty to behold! (although compared to my 13" Commodore 1084S-D1, it would take time to adjust to its nice 20" size!)
Thank you all for your kind comments which made this project a success! I will post images shortly!
Thanks again.
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What circuit did you add ? I guess from reading your previous posts a bit better it is a sync combiner.
The picture must be very good this is a broadcast quality monitor :)
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What circuit did you add ? I guess from reading your previous posts a bit better it is a sync combiner.
The picture must be very good this is a broadcast quality monitor :)
I ended up using this diagram:
(http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/vga2csync.gif)
(http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/4070.gif)
At the following http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/cables-en.html (http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/cables-en.html)
It looks great and all but the screen is a bit off, and there is no knobs to adjust the position or the shape of the picture.
How do I open this monitor up for fine tuning?
Thanks.
Best,
c0dehunter
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Here are the screenshots:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8440/7743803554_c79a8f37a6.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7743803554/)
Geometry is OFF 01 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7743803554/) by c0dehunter (http://www.flickr.com/people/48901682@N02/), on Flickr
As you can see, the red markers on top, right and bottom are missing, so the geometry needs to be adjusted.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8304/7743803234_79ee4c98f5.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7743803234/)
Geometry is OFF 02 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7743803234/) by c0dehunter (http://www.flickr.com/people/48901682@N02/), on Flickr
Again it needs adjustment.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8445/7743805358_50ac0ae4aa.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7743805358/)
Geometry is OFF 03 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7743805358/) by c0dehunter (http://www.flickr.com/people/48901682@N02/), on Flickr
I would like to adjust the "bent" screen on the edges.
Are there images of a PVM opened? I can only see 4 screws connecting the back panel. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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The bent edges may be adjusted with a pincushion control pot, if it has one.
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To be honest, I am not 100% satisfied with the image quality of my SONY PVM-2030.
1) Compared to my 13" Commodore 1084S-D1, the scan-lines (which I love to have, don't get me wrong) are STRONGLY pronounced, and the actual R, G, B pixels standout prominently: Maybe this phenomenon is a feature of the Trinotron tube, but the image quality of my 1084S-D1 is much sharper/smoother. (Maybe it is the size of the 1084S-D1, but everything seems sharper.)
2) I managed to open my PVM-2030 and adjusted many settings, but I still could not get to produce the image that I came to love and adore with my 1084S-D1.
3) Using my SONY PVM-2030, when I launch different emulators, the image is completely off, so I have to spend time and manually adjust for each individual emulator. On my 1084S-D1, amazingly they stay pretty much centered and the way I like, (not to mention that 1084S-D1 features the adjusting knobs in the back for easy access, unlike the PVM-2030, which force me to leave it opened all the times for constant fine tuning.)
Obviously, this is a very subjective matter, but in my opinion, my 1084S-D1 is capable of producing a more sharper image. I will post some images to prove my observations.
After all the time and money spent, I guess I am back to my trusty Commodore 1084S-D1 for retro gaming emulation, but I think it was worth the try.
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A smaller screen is always sharper of course.
Gotta remember that both monitors were designed for totally different goals. The Sony is a broadcast monitor. Frequencies are very fixed at broadcasting, where (classic) arcade games used to "make up" their own sync timings with a wide variety between games/PCBs.
This is (just) one of the reasons why I stopped using TV's as monitor.
On the sharpness: I do have to say that is odd. I never liked the Trinitron system because the colors are not as natural as a good Philips tube f.i. On trinitron computer monitors I always hated the black lines that were not so noticeable on TV,s but very much on computer monitors because of the mainly white screens.
However, I think with computer monitors the picture really was unbeatable sharp on Trinitrons, which was a big plus on computer use. On TV's however i always felt that sharpness to be unnatural.
So, it might be you have a comparable preference for picture "looks".
Oh by the way......Trinitron tubes are the only tubes that can't be use on vector monitors because they don't have a shadow mask. I'd love to try it just to see how it would look :)
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Glad to hear your observation. As I said, the PVM might look great for DVD/broadcast sources, but I am not that impressed with playing games on it (compared to my 1084S-D1 of course). Had I not seen it on my 1084, then I would have said that it was the best, but my 1084 is sharper, and the image stays centered and no need to adjustment.