Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: Q*ris on November 05, 2011, 03:42:55 PM
-
Remember Ully's perfectly working Canyon Bomber (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2966.msg41820#msg41820)?
Well long story short: I broke it's monitor neck :'( :-\ :'( I know, I know...
Although Ully took the news like a gentleman I really really feel super bad about it and could bang my head on the wall for hours for being so stupid.
How did it happen? Well, my trailer was too small to carry the cab upright so I had to carry it lying on its back. Of course I double checked if everything was firmly attached before moving the cab. Little did I knew that the monitor chassis itself was too weak to support the wheight of the monitor in this horizontal position...
The whole chassis bended and of course the neck of the monitor touched the backdoor and got seriously damaged.
Lesson learned, try to carry your cabs in a vertical position as much as possible, because those old giants don't like to rest on their back, hence the name "upright"...
I will now of course do whatever I can to fix this BIG mistake.
Etienne has already suggested that a really precise soldering might fix the problem,...that would be a great solution!
Other ideas I had: finding the exact same broken part... but is this something you can just swap?
If so, in my tournament table, I have a working TEC TM600 (it's the same monitor but in it's 19'' version), I'm of course OK to give the non broken piece to Ully but can it even be removed, and will it work on his monitor?
Questions,questions,... need you help here guys, my electronic knowledge is definitely too limited to tackle this problem alone.
Here are some pictures of the damages and the monitor's manual (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/Tec Videoelectronics TM-600 and TM-623 Monitor 19in and 23in.pdf).
It's a B/W Monitor TEC TM623 (sometimes called TM123 by Atari) and it's used in Atari cabs from that period (circa 1977).
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/L1160120.jpg)
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/L1160121.jpg)
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/L1160116.jpg)
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/L1160119.jpg)
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/L1160117.jpg) (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/L1160122.jpg)
-
I can only repeat what i already PM-ed you, so ..
I would try to solder the pins back on, or wires straight to the broken point where they enter the neck.
it looks like the glass is still in one piece so a good change you can fix it..
you do need some soldering skills though...
-
Dude, you have my deepest sympathies.
The tube still has vacuum it's worth a shot to see if it still works. One issue to bear in mind with soldering, though, is that the neck pins are metal sealed in glass. They were not intended to be soldered and the heat may crack the glass (the metal will expand, the glass won't).
If it were me, I'd be looking for a mechanical solution, something like a spring loaded pin that could make contact with the neck pins. If you can find a replacement neck socket, you could fit the spring loaded pins into the socked and clamp it on the neck. I had an idea that the type of pin that might work for this are the ones that they use to hold watch straps in place - it's about the same size as a neck pin (but a bit longer) with spring loaded points on each side.
Let me know if I'm not making any sense and I'll try and draw a picture.
Paul.
-
Sounds very good paul!
(http://www.timetoday.nl/skin/frontend/default/blank_seo/images/veelgestelde_vragen/pin-horlogeband.jpg)
-
Thanks a lot for your input!
Would that "pogo pin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_pin)" thing do the trick?
(http://www.fantron.com/images/pogopin_b.JPG)
-
It's an idea :)
-
I have good hopes boys and girls ;)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/neck1.jpg)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/neck2.jpg)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/neck3.jpg)
Will "cast" it in hot silicon glue to enforce it (no, not that cheap DIY store crap, but 3M profi shizzle)
Then create a new connector on the wires that can go in the old neck connector, and fix the metal mounts (whiche caused all this trouble in the first place, it was not bended, but the supports where spot welded and brake loose.. )
Pictures and explanations about that later.
I hope this works...., i do have a good feeling about it though ;)
-
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Well, it's pretty clear who went to bed early last night..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
:spaceace: :spaceace:
-
I think its better to state "who did not drink alcohol last night" :D ;D
ps sorry for the "blurry" detail shots, i needed to use my wife's snappy cam :-\
-
"day of the tentactle" ;D
looks very promising, etienne, thx so much for the efforts so far ...
-
I think its better to state "who did not drink alcohol last night" :D ;D
ps sorry for the "blurry" detail shots, i needed to use my wife's snappy cam :-\
I actually barely drank any alcohol last night because I still had to drive.
-
I was reffering to Pieter ;D
It did require a very steady hand, and some serious cleaning before i could even reach the metal.
The metal was pretty deep inside, but i think i got it covered.
I hope it works, and then is the question how long it will survive..
It also looks i can apply power to it, it has a isolation transformer and 110 - 220 volt selector on the frame :P
-
I owe you many more than one for this rescue!!!!!
So much work because of me... :oops: :oops: :oops:
Many many thanks for helping, Etienne, fingers and soldering irons crossed for the next test!
-
If you have your old C64 or any other source wit composte video you actually test it.
What is the plan ? I am not to sure if I would use silicon glue. Why not get something harder like a 2 component resin (kunsthars) ? That way you can leave the wires as short as possible, redusing risks, and put a new connector on it (if avalable and possible)......but maybe I am just dreaming....
-
Whatever it takes to secure the soldered part, i may even build a lioncage around it ;D
no seriously, I do have some clamps around here (the same as the ones on the neck already) so i'll figure something out.
The silicon glue i am talking about is not diy store crap, its as hard and resistence as some other resin (and i have that at hand also ;))
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/kbhack/25.jpg)
i did already find out that the original pins have the same diameter as the nails that i have in my shed.
together with some casting and the broken leftover piece that came from the neck will be a nice new connector.
Just wait and see ;), you guy's are dealing with the only real macgyver on this board uh :lol:.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/macgyver.jpg)
About the composite source, i do have those direct to tv games here, they are composite out, so that might actually work.
Never tried something like that..
The problem is though, which pin is the composite input pin ?
I did not look good yet, but i see this connector on the chassis:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/neck4.jpg)
-
Hah I trust you get it fixed for sure !!
Go easy, VERY easy on tightening any clamps to the neck....
what monitor is it, Motorola ? What model ?
[edit] Haha, read the thread title I guess ehhh ;D
-
The manual has the info.
Pin 1 is video signal
Pin 2 is video ground
Be careful because there is also 110V on the same connector !!!
Found the info here: http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Atari_Kee/Canyon_Bomber/Canyon_Bomber_TM-097_2nd_Printing.pdf
Check the wiring diagram.
-
I will check that with the multimeter before i connect a source ;)
Thanks !
-
Lets continue..
I need a casting mould..
What would macgyver do ? ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix1.jpg)
A piece of old pvc pipe will do the trick ;)
Lets cut off a piece..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix2.jpg)
No need for clamps, so another risk avoid :D
Place it carefully..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix3.jpg)
Now fill it up at number 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdyyps2wmd4) :D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix5.jpg)
Time to let it cool down a bit..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix6.jpg)
While waiting, i examined the damage on the frame.
The bars where spotwelded, and brake lose there, so i drilled 2 holes and tapped threads in there.
After some bending to get the frame back in order i put in 2 bolts which will keep the frame in place.
(i dont have a welding machine, otherwise i would have weld it)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix7.jpg)
And ofcourse the other side 8)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix8.jpg)
Time to put this baby back on its feet..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix9.jpg)
If it turns out that its not working after all, we have a little light at the end of the tunnel...
The artwork is not a sticker as we thought, it is printed on a piece of bended plexi !
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix10.jpg)
So if for some reason i have F#cked it up, there is still a possibility to change the tube and transplant this piece..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fix/fix11.jpg)
I have a plan that keeps the old neck connector unmodified ;)
Later more on that, and ofcourse the testing to see if it did in fact saved this one..
fingers crossed ..
-
I'd have tested it before sealing it with the epoxy ;)
-
Ouch....that's a good point.
Otherwise......I'm flabbergasted.....
Are you sure there is no water poring down your missing sink drain on the floor now ? ;D ;D ;D ;D
Wait a minute ? What's that I hear ? A loud bang from the South !!! I read on nu.nl the entire city of Breda is in darkness......hello.....Etienne ??
-
By the way....somewhat of a shame there were no flat-screen CRT's back then......
impossible to scan that artwork for our grand-grand-grand children's sake.....
Then again.....nothing seems impossible for Holland's own Macgyver (am I the only person on the face of the planet to have never seen an episode of that series ?)
-
i'm blown away by your dedication, etienne! thx so much :-*
Then again.....nothing seems impossible for Holland's own Macgyver (am I the only person on the face of the planet to have never seen an episode of that series ?)
nope, make this two!!! never seen a single episode
-
uh, one thing just came to my mind: hopefully the monitor will still fit into the cabinet with its new extension ... ???
-
Jeez, man, even if you need to install a Gorf "hunchback" on that cab.....who cares !
-
Judging by this pic in the manual I'd say there is still some space behind the monitor.
Then again, if I keep looking at that pic I get an Escher-esque feeling because the guy who drew that apparently wasn't very good at drawing perspectives. Look at the top half on the cab....AFAIR drawing perspective, that top rear line should be in parallel to the very bottom rear line on the lower part, right ?
Probably another hippy they picked up from the street drawing this under the influence of some stuff and Zappa music....
Or am I just high because I just finished "painting" a cabinet ?
-
Incredible work you're doing there Etienne, THANKS!
It will work, I want to believe!!!
-
Judging by this pic in the manual I'd say there is still some space behind the monitor.
Then again, if I keep looking at that pic I get an Escher-esque feeling because the guy who drew that apparently wasn't very good at drawing perspectives. Look at the top half on the cab....AFAIR drawing perspective, that top rear line should be in parallel to the very bottom rear line on the lower part, right ?
Probably another hippy they picked up from the street drawing this under the influence of some stuff and Zappa music....
Or am I just high because I just finished "painting" a cabinet ?
;D ;D
hard to tell even by looking at the pics.
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/cbm_1.jpg)
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/canyon_bomber/cbm_2.jpg)
It's a separate backdoor dedicated to reach the monitor part only.
-
Looks to me like plenty of space ! The connector on the CRT looks to be level or even a bit "shorter" then the monitor chassis molex plug, and there is space behind that.
You're lucky it's not a color monitor with a neck-board...
-
That's in fact the main reason why I chose to break that particular one. ::)
-
You've chosen......wisely....
-
I think there is not a space issue, since the "modification" is in the end the same length as the original setup with the neck connector installed.
Good point Paul, i should have tested it while it was still not casted, but i dont receive my suit that i ordered untill tomorow..
(http://www.bombsuit.co.uk/images/bombsuit.png)
Anyway, its Hot silicon glue, so it is removable with some heat... :D
(http://www.howtoreloadammunition.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/flamethrower.jpg)
We will see what happens guys, if it aint working, i can still try to fix it in another way
perhaps by casting those wristwatch pins instead of wires :)
Later more, it was starting to get cold in my shed, so i went inside..
-
This topic is officially achingly suspensful for me, the hurt locker (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0887912/) style...
-
Well... 2 times bad luck today >:(
when i was creating a creative plug to enter in the original connector, i broke the connector :evil:
the plastic was so fragile after all those years, it cracked when i tried to enter the nails that fitted last week..
anyway, i cutted the connector off and connected the wires straight to the new wires that came out of the neck.
(first i folowed them and labeled them in the correct way)
Then i took a piece of cable and connected it to my stepdown converter since it was set on 115 volts..
I waited and waited and nothing happened.
I could only hear that highpitch noise that you listen from a tv also.
So i removed the neckpart and soldered them again to see if i maybe missed a connection, or if one came loose while casting it.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/bw1.jpg)
This time i tested it again without casting it, but the same result, no neckglow, and only the high pitch noise..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/bw2.jpg)
So it was two times bad luck, 1 broken neckconnector and one fix that did not work >:(.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/bw3.jpg)
DAMN!!!!!
Well at least i gave it eveything i could, but i am affraid the tube is gone..
I dont know if you got another black - white monitor, then you can transplant the plexi with the art.
Or if its true what andre says (that it delivers component video) you can hack a tv which has a component input in there.
I guess it does not matter if its a color tv, since the board outputs black and white.
just find something with the same tubesize i guess..
Sorry i did'nt succeed, even the real macgyver fails sometimes ;)
-
High pitched noise? Is that from the neck/tube? If it is, I've had that when the vacuum is blown :-[
-
I think so too....be careful !
At least the artwork can be transplanted to another B/W monitor.
I would not go with a color tube though. It can be made to work, but there are two issues:
1) the dot-pitch of a B/W tube is higher. This _is_ noticable and doesn't look right
2) convergence is never 100% on a color tube. When you feed it B/W signal that is so "simple" as that of these games (just a few grayscales probably) you will notice the slightest convergence errors because there will be red/blue edges on the graphics, esp. in the corners.
Of course everyone should decide for themselves, but I'm sure that Ully managed to pick up a B/W monitor here or there during all his arcade adventures...
Oh, and remember that we still have a working chassis....if Ully can find a nice working B/W TV in Germany, he's all set :)
-
Well thank you so much for trying the best you could!
Great that we can remove the artwork on the monitor because I think I've located 2 nests of TEC monitors but none are 100% confirmed.
I should know more wednesday evening.
Stay tuned.
-
Ully, do you want me to remove the tube, the plexi, and then ditch the broken tube ?
its alot less heavy with only the frame and chassis ;D
-
thx so much for trying, etienne, i was hoping it could be fixed, but obviously it was beyond repair. once again: THANKS!!!
Ully, do you want me to remove the tube, the plexi, and then ditch the broken tube ?
IF the plexi can be removed easily, please do so, but only when you are certain that it won't get damaged. it would be a shame if we lost it. but i believe in you and your macgyver techniques. do me a favour though first, please take a picture of the plexi placement on the screen so that i know where to put it exactly later. thx a lot!!!
-
And that is what i did ofcourse ;)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/1.jpg)
It looks like they have mounted it a bit shifted to the right.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/2.jpg)
here is more space between the edge and the plexi, but i think if you center it it will be perfect.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/3.jpg)
They have produced this in mass so it can very well be that they did not put too much effort in it to have it exactly in the center..
Anyway, its getting hot in here so lets open the window ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/4.jpg)
Then i discovered something on the glass of the tube..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/5.jpg)
I know you love those details so i saved that too for you by sticking it to a piece of plastic..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/6.jpg)
Details for connecting the yoke again later, the other connections i have send you in your email.
did you received it Ully ?
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/7.jpg)
Discharged it, removed the tube and Yoke.
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/9.jpg)
Leaves a bare frame with chassis here..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/8.jpg)
Lets clean it a bit, soap, water and a soft cloth to prevent damage..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/10.jpg)
And to remove the residue, it took a ride in my bathtub :P
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/11.jpg)
Its very flexible plexi, so i could scan it.. and ofcourse i dontlet this opportunity pass ;)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/12.jpg)
stitch ready..
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/13.jpg)
slide it into bubble wrap...
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/14.jpg)
Packed and ready for pickup ;)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/15.jpg)
Its safe in the attic, so the plexi is saved..
-
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/canyonbomber/9.jpg)
Let's take a moment of silence for this poor old B/W CRT. Through an insane twist of fait, it had been in storage for a couple of decades. To everyone's surprise, it was a live and well even after all this time. Glorious times would be lying before it again, for some caring people found it and were ready to rescue it from it's dark fait.
Then....the sadest thing possible happened. How weird that a poor manufacturing quality of something simple like a frame would end it's life after waiting so long.... :'( :'( :'(
RIP old friend !
However, the monitor became a part of a very good thing, being the definitive rescue of the wonderful CRT artwork !!
Anyway....there are still b/w TV's left who may be able to donate their CRT for this ! :)
Etienne: you were pretty lucky that the artwork didn't start flaking !!
-
Amazingly strong and good artwork after 34 years !
It on the back by the way, there i used even more caution while cleaning, but its supertight on there and no chips at all
(i checked that ofcourse before i began ;) )
-
that is one incredible amazing effort, etienne - and so nicely documented!!! thx a lot for your hard work, unfortunately it didn't pay off. but at least you could save the plexi and i'm sure one day it'll serve its original purpose again.
btw, i could get a working 23'' b/w TV for 50 euros shipped. is that a good price? should i go for it? chris might be able to get a replacement monitor, but it can't hurt to stock up on b/w tvs as well, can it?
-
Pretty expensive but on the other hand, B/W TV's start getting rare too....
If it's working and the tube is OK looking...worth it I'd say (incl. shipping).
Luckily B/W CRT's are much easier to replace (no convergence worries).
-
Again I'm sorry for all this extra work guys :oops: :oops: :oops:
Ully, hold your horses on that 50$ TV, I just thought of a new B/W monitor nest (check your emails)!
-
Again I'm sorry for all this extra work guys :oops: :oops: :oops:
I dont understand why you keep apologizing my friend, there is really no need. You tried helping Ully and who would have known that frame would break ? I have transported lots of cabs and I never had that happening, it would have happend to everyone else too.
And it definitly is something that can be solved, althouh I would have loved to see Etiennes hack-job be succesful since it was done so daringly ;D
-
I dont understand why you keep apologizing my friend, there is really no need. You tried helping Ully and who would have known that frame would break ?
absolutely right, andré! i keep telling chris it's ok and we will find a replacement eventually, but there's no stopping chris once he's in motion ... ;)
-
Thanks for the kind words buddies!
It's just that as a collector it breaks my heart to damage such a nice piece of arcade history.
Just for the record: I also broke one of the very first cab I ever had to move. ::)
It was an N'Styl (generic grey cab) at the seller's place, it has wheels so I slept my hand in the handles, tilted the cab towards me and... instantly the whole thing collapsed on me: the backdoor broke in two and the monitor neck hit my (iron) abs... I then decided not to buy it. 8)
-
Just be honest chris, you thought i was getting a bid bored, so you gave me a new project to focus on ;D ;D ;D
-
Indeed ;) ...and also I wanted you to have that nice spare tube in time for Christmas because it's a great arcade style tree decoration.