Author Topic: Nintendo Space Firebird Upright : trying to revive a species long dead  (Read 16346 times)

Franzy21

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Guys,


I got this rare bird from Ully end of last year.
It went to my storage place and although Ully had done the sourcing of most of the parts, it still needed a wiring harness and a marquee.
End of last year, I managed to make a repro marquee with Etienne's vector file and a piece of plexi.

This week-end, I managed to continue the reviving process.
Thanks to Alex/Chuckie Egg for some wiring and these black Ninty connectors parts...

First check of voltages on the transformer screw terminal
-4.89V
+11.78V
+5.11 V
for the terminals I need.
OK not too bad.

Ully had told me the PCB was working o I was not too afraid when powering the machine up after wiring up the PCB.
Note the unconventinal connection to the (german) transformer.
Although it is original for this machine, it is not a genuine Nintendo part.

First power up -> tadaa blue screen.
Arghh!!!
Then fiddling up with the screen controls -> tadaa bluish screen with some markings. So we're making progress but text is upside down.
Hair pulling sequence then Internet browsing -> tadaa !!! Found a webpage where Bob Roberts explains how to "play" with the yoke plug on the monitor board.
Surprise, my yoke had already been played with by a previous owner so back into original position -> screen is now reverted to correct position.

Then off we go with trying to get some sound.
The sound board looks hacked and is bypassed -> hop a domino for reinstating the speaker connections (light blue circle in the pic)
Then a very bad looking connection for the PCB connection(red circle). I'm too eager to get some good sound...
Quick test, sound is working -> Good!!!

Next surprise, it's a Gremlin rom -> if someone knows which EPROM has the Nintendo copyright and/or has a set of Ninty roms I may be interested.
Also game coins up and plays OK -> Controls  and microswitches are good.

Then THE issue : my screen still has this bluish tint : no way to get some black background and the correct colors.
Tried all the combinations on the R, G & B signals and on the numerous pots and the monitor (a Sanyo in a box, by the way, maybe a 20-DZC?)
But I cannot manage proper colors!!!!

Does any of you have a clue?

I am wondering if the monitor has not been tampered more than just the yoke connections...
There is no specific inverter board but on these early Sanyo-Ninty they're sort of "included" in the monitor board no?
How could I check?


Franzy
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 01:40:07 AM by Franzy21 »
Dreaming of a Namco Galaxian waiting in a barn for me... somewhere! A Nintendo Sheriff would also make me happy. And a SNK Sasuke Vs Commanders or a SEGA Samurai... Argh too many; in fact!

Franzy21

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Re: Nintendo Space Firebird Upright : trying to revive a dead species
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2016, 01:34:07 AM »
Rest of pics...

You can see the result of my playing with the RGB signals...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 01:41:35 AM by Franzy21 »
Dreaming of a Namco Galaxian waiting in a barn for me... somewhere! A Nintendo Sheriff would also make me happy. And a SNK Sasuke Vs Commanders or a SEGA Samurai... Argh too many; in fact!

ronnie dent

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Very nice rare example! very lucky you have one, well done.

It looks to me to be a screen fault or the screen volts are too high! I would try remove the rgb cable from screen to see if blue is still showing?

If it is then it's a screen fault, if screen is dark try to remove the sound board cables all of them but with rgb plugged back in, game will still run but with no starfield or sound, tell us the results?

Thanks Ronnie
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 12:02:33 PM by ronnie dent »

Arch

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About the blue screen: I would suspect that this relates to the transistors on the neck board. Perhaps the other colours are dead, but more likely the blue cutoff circutry is not working either due to bad components or cold solder joints. If you are not confident in trying to repair it, I would send it right off to Gunblade/Grant Spain.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 10:43:20 AM by Arch »
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vernimark

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very nice cab!

Franzy21

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Very nice rare example! very lucky you have one, well done.

It looks to me to be a screen fault or the screen volts are too high! I would try remove the rgb cable from screen to see if blue is still showing?

If it is then it's a screen fault, if screen is dark try to remove the sound board cables all of them but with rgb plugged back in, game will still run but with no starfield or sound, tell us the results?

Thanks Ronnie

Ronnie, thanks a lot for your help!!!
It's much appreciated.

It'll be hard for me to test it soon 'cause the cab is in my storage and I won't get back there before this summer...
But you've given me some very good leads to follow.
And I remember that at one moment I had forgotten to plug back the rgb cable and the screen still showed blue.
So it would seem you may be correct at pointing at the screen rather than the PCB but I'll nevertheless cross check and try to unplug the ESS board when I finally get there.
:)
Dreaming of a Namco Galaxian waiting in a barn for me... somewhere! A Nintendo Sheriff would also make me happy. And a SNK Sasuke Vs Commanders or a SEGA Samurai... Argh too many; in fact!

Franzy21

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About the blue screen: I would suspect that this relates to the transistors on the neck board. Perhaps the other colours are dead, but more likely the blue cutoff circutry is not working either due to bad components or cold solder joints. If you are not confident in trying to repair it, I would send it right off to Gunblade/Grant Spain.

Very interesting replay Arch... thanks also :)

The blue cut-off looks to be "working" or maybe I should put it more accurately is at least having an effect on screen.
As well as the red & green cut-offs (when at max, I get a screen all red, all green or all blue...).
Blue is just the (by far) dominant color and I cannot manage to have a black background...
Do you know if there are there some tests I can make before sending the neck board for potential repair?

Franzy
Dreaming of a Namco Galaxian waiting in a barn for me... somewhere! A Nintendo Sheriff would also make me happy. And a SNK Sasuke Vs Commanders or a SEGA Samurai... Argh too many; in fact!

Arch

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I think this video might hold the solution for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HASKqAOwLms

If it is not the colour transistors on the neckboard, chances are that you need to adjust the screen voltage on the flyback. Look at 12:55. When the voltage is high it can look kind of blueish I think. Either way, this is a good video if you want to adjust your B+ and do other tweaks to your Sanyo. I learnt a lot from it myself.

Oh, and don't send just the neckboard for repair. You need to send the whole chassis.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 11:54:34 AM by Arch »
All I wanted was a Pepsi!
Currently looking for an original Wonderboy PCB.

Luigi

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Winni, a very experienced monitor guy, mentioned that he would search the bug on the neckboard.

Here's what he wrote:

Quote
Also ich meine, daß der nen Stich in der Videosignalverarbeitung für B hat.
R und G werden ja wohl dargestellt, aber von B hoffnungslos überstrahlt.
Auch bei getrennter Signalleitung sichtbar? Die Drive-Steller auf Mitte stellen.
Dann mal alle drei Cutoff Einsteller auf Minimum, also höchste Spannung an den Kathoden....
Bild muß dunkel sein, hier wird aber B nicht hoch genug an der Kathode werden....Farbendstufe defekt?
Oder einer der Transistoren davor....

I don't have the knowledge to translate it to english, maybe someone else...?


However, have you measured and compared the three colour drives on the neckboard if the values differ?


Franzy21

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I think this video might hold the solution for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HASKqAOwLms

If it is not the colour transistors on the neckboard, chances are that you need to adjust the screen voltage on the flyback. Look at 12:55. When the voltage is high it can look kind of blueish I think. Either way, this is a good video if you want to adjust your B+ and do other tweaks to your Sanyo. I learnt a lot from it myself.

Oh, and don't send just the neckboard for repair. You need to send the whole chassis.

Thanks again.
I'm not sure i's as easy on the old Sanyos such as my 20-DZC compared to the 20-EZs (it's on the flyback transformer no?) but when I get there I'll have a look.
:)
Dreaming of a Namco Galaxian waiting in a barn for me... somewhere! A Nintendo Sheriff would also make me happy. And a SNK Sasuke Vs Commanders or a SEGA Samurai... Argh too many; in fact!

Franzy21

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Re: Nintendo Space Firebird Upright : trying to revive a species long dead
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2016, 01:04:27 PM »
Winni, a very experienced monitor guy, mentioned that he would search the bug on the neckboard.

Here's what he wrote:

Quote
Also ich meine, daß der nen Stich in der Videosignalverarbeitung für B hat.
R und G werden ja wohl dargestellt, aber von B hoffnungslos überstrahlt.
Auch bei getrennter Signalleitung sichtbar? Die Drive-Steller auf Mitte stellen.
Dann mal alle drei Cutoff Einsteller auf Minimum, also höchste Spannung an den Kathoden....
Bild muß dunkel sein, hier wird aber B nicht hoch genug an der Kathode werden....Farbendstufe defekt?
Oder einer der Transistoren davor....

Yep please, a bit of translation would help. :)
Despite my name I'm not German.

Nope, I've done no measurement.
I did not fell so confident putting my fingers around the CRT  :-[ but I am more than willing to try.
What should I do?

F

I don't have the knowledge to translate it to english, maybe someone else...?


However, have you measured and compared the three colour drives on the neckboard if the values differ?


Dreaming of a Namco Galaxian waiting in a barn for me... somewhere! A Nintendo Sheriff would also make me happy. And a SNK Sasuke Vs Commanders or a SEGA Samurai... Argh too many; in fact!

SeTTleR

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Re: Nintendo Space Firebird Upright : trying to revive a species long dead
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2016, 11:55:39 AM »
Ok, let me give it a try  :)

Quote
Also ich meine, daß der nen Stich in der Videosignalverarbeitung für B hat.
R und G werden ja wohl dargestellt, aber von B hoffnungslos überstrahlt.
Auch bei getrennter Signalleitung sichtbar? Die Drive-Steller auf Mitte stellen.
Dann mal alle drei Cutoff Einsteller auf Minimum, also höchste Spannung an den Kathoden....
Bild muß dunkel sein, hier wird aber B nicht hoch genug an der Kathode werden....Farbendstufe defekt?
Oder einer der Transistoren davor....

In my opinion there is a problem in the signalhandling for B. R and G seem to be present, but they are heavily outshined by B.
Is this visible even if the signal line is disconnected? Put the Drive-adjuster in the middle position. Then all three Cutoff-adjustors on minimum, so that you have the highest voltage at the cathodes.
The picture has to be dark, B will not be high enough at the cathode... color output state (?!) defect? Or maybe a transistor in front of it...

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'

Franzy21

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Re: Nintendo Space Firebird Upright : trying to revive a species long dead
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 09:21:54 PM »
Ok, let me give it a try  :)


In my opinion there is a problem in the signalhandling for B. R and G seem to be present, but they are heavily outshined by B.
Is this visible even if the signal line is disconnected? Put the Drive-adjuster in the middle position. Then all three Cutoff-adjustors on minimum, so that you have the highest voltage at the cathodes.
The picture has to be dark, B will not be high enough at the cathode... color output state (?!) defect? Or maybe a transistor in front of it...



Could this be a question of purity?
Should I play with the rings?
 ???
Dreaming of a Namco Galaxian waiting in a barn for me... somewhere! A Nintendo Sheriff would also make me happy. And a SNK Sasuke Vs Commanders or a SEGA Samurai... Argh too many; in fact!

Franzy21

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Re: Nintendo Space Firebird Upright : trying to revive a species long dead
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 12:00:38 AM »
Update on this restoration.

Changed all 3 transistors (TR251, TR252 & TR253) on neckboard.
Changed 2 more (TR201 & TR204) on main chassis on blue color circuit.
Increased voltage from 96 to 108 VDC for B+ (at TP91) with VR 601.

And nothing changed.
Still getting this bluish tint.
 >:(

Any other idea?
Dreaming of a Namco Galaxian waiting in a barn for me... somewhere! A Nintendo Sheriff would also make me happy. And a SNK Sasuke Vs Commanders or a SEGA Samurai... Argh too many; in fact!

ronnie dent

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Re: Nintendo Space Firebird Upright : trying to revive a species long dead
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2018, 03:25:48 PM »
Did you get this resolved franzy? I would try removing the blue transistor from neck card and power with the red and green only