Author Topic: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)  (Read 26040 times)

Belike

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2011, 04:28:11 PM »
First: I want to say that I admire it that you still talk with us here, we burnt you pretty badly. Please don't see this as personal attacks, it's just that you reached those 0.1% of the population that gives a lot about those old pieces of wood with ancient electronics in them :)

Also: I welcome every initiative that is trying to preserve classic computers/videogames/arcade games. That most of us don't agree on the way it's done, is very obvious and doesn't need to be repeated.

Not sure when you moved from the US to Germany, but I'm not too sure about the law actually being to blame for the demise of arcades in Germany.

For starters: arcades weren't really that big and as much around as in the US. Ever. The "scene" in Europe was mostly tourist places for proper arcades, and snack-bars,movie theaters etc. for one or two machines. The arcades that I used to know from my youth are mostly actually still around today because they are at those tourist places. Lots of those machines were also at "arcade" at camping sites and other holiday parks.

I think in Europe, the UK had (has?) the "best" arcade scene. (Part of the) British tend to be less negative about gambling in general, so this probably helped. (I remember Ladbroke's tried to get us to gamble on sports matches, didn't work here).

I agree with you that the "general public" doesn't even see the difference between an amusement machine and a gambling machine, and put them "in the same corner".
However, the people who around 40 now, and have grown up with videogames tend to be much less negative about them.

Anyway, all that considered, I don't see how that "justifies" the mame-ing and TFT-ing of those classic machines.
Also, how about the rest of the machines in the museum. I'm sure there are C64's, spectrums and hopefully some Atari machines running there ? Are those being emulated too ?

I'm interested to know if the museum still has the original hardware around (hopefully) and if they would be willing to actually restore the machines to original state, maybe with help of some of us here in any way or form...

Let me end to say that I totally disagree with Blanka, but that's not the first and the last time, and everyone has his right of an opinion.
If you seriously say that vector games look BETTER on a TFT you either never have SEEN a real vector game, or are you simply just don't get it.
Absolutely +1, just my english was not enough good to word my thoughts.

Arcadegek

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2011, 06:38:37 PM »
+2 and more....... (later)

Blanka

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2011, 07:40:26 PM »
Let me end to say that I totally disagree with Blanka, but that's not the first and the last time, and everyone has his right of an opinion.
If you seriously say that vector games look BETTER on a TFT you either never have SEEN a real vector game, or you simply just don't get it.
Did I say better? I said great. Compared to all scan-line CRT's, Vector looks better on a TFT, especially with the special OpenGL rewrites of Mame. Total awesomeness off course reserved to a real vector tube.

PunkRockCaveman

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2011, 02:36:45 PM »
Hmmm, six days later and still no official spokesperson was here to get in touch with us ... anyway, as long as there are enough facebook-friends, stupid magazine guys and twitter follower who don't know better, say only good things about the "museum" why care about a few geeks spread all over europe (or further away)? I would give a rats ass, too ;)

Andreas Lange

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2011, 11:50:10 AM »
O.k. Here I am finally. I am the director of the computer game museum and as such responsible for what most of you blame. Sorry for being so late, please don't take that as a sign, that we don't care - we do. 
Where to start? First of all I appreciate your feedback in regards to our presentation of the arcades, which are indeed one important part (of other) of the video game culture. Secondly I understand your critic well. In our first permanent exhibition, which we opend 1997 and operated for four years, everything was presented interactively on original machines, which was somehow an ideal kind of presentation (in spite it took some time to switch the show on in the morning ;) ). But we had only 5000 visitors a year. Nowerdays we had 12.000 vistors in the first four weeks, which is a difference, which must be considered. Thirdly we try to advance our show permanently. It is not that uncommon, that an exhibition is not finished for eternity when it is opened, all the more, if it is a technical complex exhibition. There are a lot of conditions which have to be taken into account, e.g. the budget, which is available to produce the show, is not the most unimportant. Sometimes some patience is needed. Personally I am not satisfied with our presentation of arcade culture, too and we work on advancing it.

But let's come to the more principal points, which are raised. The question is: How much alteration is allowed for what purpose? We are aware of this question and that it is crucical for a museum to set up its policy in this regards. But even in the wider museum community it is not a decided question specially in regards of technical artefacts. For collectors it is more easy to say, only originals are counting, because originals are what they collect and what gives a collection value.  But museums are also commissioned to preserve their collectibles for future generations and I wonder what your strategies are to preserve your collectibles over the next decades in a working state. I am not claiming that we have the final answer yet, but emulation is definitely an option for us.

An other principal point which is touched here is the question, what is the original in the digital age? Blanka already mentioned, that even arcades games where produced in several version. This question is even more difficult to answer when you think at the home consoles, which very much depend on the TV. But these very much varied naturally. Also the different controllers which were and are available are influencing the feel of the game significantly. Please don't misunderstand me here: I am not raising this questions as an excuse rather to point to their significance. The recent state could be considered in trying out different strategies and we are more flexible in that as you might be aware.
e.g. we have collaborated with the Berlin Humboldt University two years ago. A class of the computer scientists has renovated our SU 2000 Cybermind arcade from the scratch (for those of you, who can read German: http://waste.informatik.hu-berlin.de/jml/lehre_ws0910.html). It is exhibited in our new show as well, but could be only switched on occasinally, because it is still not robust enough for permant operation (in spite quite a few skilled people invested a serious ammount of time for the resatauration).
So we are somehow in the process of figuring out, what the best strategy and I appreciate to discuss that with collectors as well as with other players in that field.

Last but not least I want to pick up a more concrete point, that have been made here several times. Yes, I will try to exchange at least one of our TFT monitors with an CRT (which unfortunately all were broken in our acrades). And I regret very much, that our Tempest monitor broke during it was showed back then in our first exhibition. I agree that the vector optic is special and that it can be simulated not that well on TFTs. To be able to show our vistors the look of vector screens, I have decided, to set put the Vectrex it in a glass display in our wall of hardware, which can be opened, so that the Vectrex can be played. Of course this could be considered as work around , but doing a project of our size allways means to live with compromises. It is important one try to advance it and I assume that discussion is helping us in this regards. So far for today,

Andreas


PunkRockCaveman

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2011, 02:12:33 PM »
But let's come to the more principal points, which are raised. The question is: How much alteration is allowed for what purpose? We are aware of this question and that it is crucical for a museum to set up its policy in this regards. But even in the wider museum community it is not a decided question specially in regards of technical artefacts. For collectors it is more easy to say, only originals are counting, because originals are what they collect and what gives a collection value.  But museums are also commissioned to preserve their collectibles for future generations and I wonder what your strategies are to preserve your collectibles over the next decades in a working state. I am not claiming that we have the final answer yet, but emulation is definitely an option for us.

For me personaly emulation is not an option. Not that the emulation wasn't perfekt. It is so good that I'm pretty sure that I would not recognize that it's not the original gameboard working. BUT it's still not the real thing. It's as simple as that. I'm into classic arcade and I want to play the classic arcade-cab as it was back in the days. I don't care how good emulation is ... from the preservation point of view this should be no option. I think it's a shame even to put efford in maming original cabs for a museum. Your attention should concentrate on REALLY preserve the "technical artefacts" ... that is what museums are for! Why is it not possible for a company that even earns money and is even state-aided ...


An other principal point which is touched here is the question, what is the original in the digital age?

I think I will not comment that statement ... really ...

Btw. places like Funspot with dozens of classic machines in it's original state operating 24/7 show that it IS possible to keep the cabs running and working. The amount of efford is the key. If there is not enough capacity to maintain the cabs then better keep them off. It's a slap in the face for every collector comming to your museum (not meant offensive!) and see those machines beeing mamed for "preservation" reasons. Sorry but I can read in your post that you really think that what you do is at least ok. It is not in my oppinion.

PS: Before you mame the Tempest P L E A S E !!!!! write me an email, I will take the cab, even buy it and/or give you another one for it. I hope you know, that Tempest is a holy grail for so many of us.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 02:15:55 PM by PunkRockCaveman »

DarthNuno

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2011, 08:22:08 PM »
Thanks for your point of view here, Andreas  ;)

I'm (or I'll be) in the same situation than you... I've more than 50 games, almost classics & collector cabinets. I'm finishing the building of a huge game room that should become ...maybe not a museum, but a kind of time machine, where you'll be able to play, discover or rediscover the best games from the beginning of Arcade era  8) And of course, I want most of my games playable...some of them will be 'mame' powered, no other choice...
...If the emulation is perfect, the controls/game play are right, the cabinet is THE one... then I'll reach my goal! To offer an experience of the games from the past... nowadays! The debate is already open, right here

Btw. places like Funspot with dozens of classic machines in it's original state operating 24/7 sow that it IS possible to keep the cabs running and working.
Not really... I went there, and some of their games are using computer... Dragon's Lair for example  ::)

The amount of efford is the key. If there is not enough capacity to maintain the cabs then better keep them off. It's a slap in the face for every collector comming to your museum (not meant offensive!) and see those machines beeing mamed for "preservation" reasons. Sorry but I can read in your post that you really think that what you do is at least ok. It is not in my oppinion.

Not agree... in that case, do nothing and close 99% of all the museums around the world that use copy or reproduction...

I agree such techniques used in the museum are not the best one (using LCD for instance), but at last, he tries to DO something for the community and the people...

... from the preservation point of view this should be no option.

That answer is just too easy... and so easy to write ... because who wouldn't have a 100% original stuff up & running... but with a big amount of games, without a full time technician and $€£... it's simply almost not possible.

Andreas Lange

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2011, 01:19:16 PM »
Your attention should concentrate on REALLY preserve the "technical artefacts" ... that is what museums are for! Why is it not possible for a company that even earns money and is even state-aided ...

Thanks for the feedback PunkRockCaveman. I totally understand, that for a collector only the original counts. But still I wonder, what your approach will be let's say in 30 years, when the PCB have died and no substitute is available. Would you waive playing the game or would you start considering emulation?

Because this question makes only sense on the assumption, that ICs and microchips will die some day, I would also take on the opportunity to ask you about your experiences regarding that matter. In the preservation community it is assumed broadly that ICs and microchips last around 4 decades - relativly independ of their use and storage conditions. I am very intersted what is the emprical knowlege here...

(btw: we are not state-aided. we received a public funding for the production of the exhibition, but now we are on our own resp. depend mainly on our visitors)

Andreas

DarthNuno

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2011, 09:32:47 AM »
A solution that deserves to be trying when using a LCD display connected to a real arcade board : SLG3000 scan line generator.



Here's the details :

SLG 3000 is another comunity based product. It´s purpose is to generate scanlines for VGA standard 640 x 480 using modern display.

Thus SLG3000 is perfect to get arcade feeling for games coming from the 15Khz times.

SLG3000 without case
SLG3000 with case
Case Only
Features
- second version with improved pcb desin
- No external PSU is needed
- Plug between your VGA Source and display
- 2 VGA female plugs
- DIP settings for even and odd lines
- DIP settings for different resolutions
- adjust scanlines continuously via potentiometers
- optional Screw terminals for on and off switch
- on and off switch



without / with the interface  :arrow:



Not too bad IMO  ::)

All the details here.

DarthNuno

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2011, 09:35:56 AM »
Ops! The input signal must be also VGA, so you cannot hook it a 15Khz board  :-[ ...

Andreas Lange

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2011, 12:35:04 PM »
Hello,
I just want to confirm, that we are offering meanwhile like promised an original Donkey Kong cabinet (with MAME inside) with an original raster monitor. Our visitors are now able to compare different preservation version by their own.
Also I am still intereted in your experience, how long the originals boards last.
Andreas

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Re: Computer Games Museum in Berlin (6 arcade machines)
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2011, 12:51:56 PM »
I just want to confirm, that we are offering meanwhile like promised an original Donkey Kong cabinet (with MAME inside) with an original raster monitor.

the white german version or the original nintendo cabinet?
all i need is ... PONG - and a select few others: TOUCH ME, DRAGON'S LAIR, JOUST, ROBOTRON, MR DO, SAN FRANCISCO RUSH THE ROCK!!!