Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Arcade Lifestyle => Topic started by: Superully on August 21, 2009, 09:08:26 PM
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i have a lot of time on my hands at the moment - how i love those summer holidays :-*. therefore i can work on a lot of projects simultaneously and i've picked something special this time. following my fabulous ROADTRIP OF THE FITTEST (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=723.0) to beautiful Tuscany i've decided to tackle the rare (unfortunately non-working) JOUST 2. so here we go ...
because this is going to be difficult, i'm starting off with something easy ;) the control panel. the overlay is in good condition, there are small dents here and there and some nicotine spots, but since there is no reproduction available a nice cleansing has to do.
removed from the cabinet, here's the control panel's original state :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2606/3843429328_b4e5bb6c72_b.jpg)
in dirty detail ...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3482/3843430036_64701f526b_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2638/3842639417_97dd90b788_b.jpg)
ladies and gentlemen, time for the magic eraser :spaceace:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3551/3842639771_72fce7dc72_b.jpg)
after a lot of scrubbing, the overlay looks way better
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3842637945_8c545b7252_b.jpg)
however, as i had expected, the nicotine spots didn't go away :( does anyone have an idea / a suggestion how to remove them?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3569/3842637737_a66af3ae47_b.jpg)
i re-assemble the panel, when suddenly someone shows up ...
... i did not see him coming ...
... he came out of nowhere ...
... here he is - in all his glory ...
... one of our wonderful cats - GNOCCHI *roar*
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2599/3842638061_1be264aef1_b.jpg)
"what's that? smells strange" :ghost:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3499/3842638567_bd599196ae_b.jpg)
"but perhaps i can play with it"
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2458/3843428482_5be16a756d_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2509/3843429078_c651344c51_b.jpg)
the claws come out :twisted:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3842638339_e872ca6862_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3532/3843429458_4c66e075c7_b.jpg)
winner by gnocc-out: our cat gnocchi!!!
to be continued ...
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I use to clean with the 'Monsieur Propre' sponge (in French), it works great...but ... it cannot remove nicotine spots like you :-\
Having Italian origin, I'm a huge 'GNOCCHI' fan :-* :-* :-* :arrow:
(http://sethmeyer.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/gnocchi.jpg?w=300&h=225)
Funny name for a cat ;)
This picture is totally awesome :P :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2509/3843429078_c651344c51_b.jpg)
;D ;D ;D
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for nicotine use ammonia (Ammoniak in dutch, and i think in geman too), but i think they are burn spots , so hard to remove i guess.
be carefull tough, ammonia is quiet agressive ! :twisted:
test it in a non showing area first is my opinion.
Great cat !!! , does he / she have a highscore yet ? ;D ;D ;D
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the restoration continues ...
on to the cabinet itself! because the weather has been so beautiful over the last couple of days (and the forecast is even better), i decide to do parts of this restoration outside on my mother's terrace. this has some huge advantages like not having to care about the powder of the sanding job or enjoying a well-cooked meal ::)
unfortunately, the condition of the cab is far from perfect, in fact the condition of the cab is pretty rough :o this requires some serious woodworking!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3449/3843563990_ab8cd80241_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2635/3842776883_1a16946486_b.jpg)
moving closer one can see in more detail what i've been talking about - here are just a few examples :shock:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2486/3842776125_5cc3b4b573_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2459/3842777151_6a752cfc71_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2570/3843564444_13ffd65d51_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3439/3843566722_bfd41944a9_b.jpg)
the cab must have got some water damage in the past, because the front plate (mdf wood) is badly swollen (difficult to see on the pic)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2457/3842777831_95531d448a_b.jpg)
because of that, i'm afraid of taking a peak underneath the cab, but i'll have to eventually. the "result" is worse than i had expected, there's even mildew - DAMN!!! check it out for yourself :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2572/3842778449_43f4596901_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2603/3843567284_4dae1e1a26_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2478/3842775175_3319ee32b1_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3512/3843564194_42cb83773a_b.jpg)
see what i'm talking about? :'( but this will have to wait, because first it's sanding time. luckily there are stencils available for the joust cabinet and since j2 uses the same cabinet as j1, it's a no-brainer for me: the old paint has to go!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3502/3842779569_6372e392b1_b.jpg)
what a blast it is to work in the garden :)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2491/3843562666_8fd7df4c67_b.jpg)
bare to the bone
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2465/3843567624_38ebec4883_b.jpg)
to be continued ...
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Having Italian origin, I'm a huge 'GNOCCHI' fan :-* :-* :-* :arrow:
Funny name for a cat ;)
our other cat's name is PESTO (who we had first), so we needed something to finish our pasta dish ;D
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also comming around great! - how will you aply the new sideart? spray it on like the original, or apply a sticker?
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spray it on! are there stickers for joust at all? anyway, i hate using stickers when the original machine was painted, but i will use some artistic freedom regarding the colors - more about that later on ...
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sounds promising! do you have a template of some sort?
- asking because i was started to re spray my Space Invaders... but i think i need a template, and a guy with a plotter who could cut it out for me... :D
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got mine from gamestencils.com:
http://www.gamestencils.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=395&action=show_detail
well worth the money!
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That will require some serious masking for spraypaint.
that remember me many years ago when i was practicing the art of airbrush...
here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsngVFitG7g) is a vid showing the stenceling technique
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got mine from gamestencils.com:
http://www.gamestencils.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=395&action=show_detail
well worth the money!
ah i saw it too late , while i was posting my last post you post this :D
Thats the way to go , it's ready for paint with this , no complicated cutting ;)
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Ully, nice work ! Although probably still mixed feelings about sanding there right ? ;)
May I ask you a favor ? Could you measure the artwork's birds from top of the head to the bottom of it's foot ? I am just wondering if the stencils for the US cab are the same size as the Euro cab. Thanks !
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Damn Ully, thats another really nice cab!
How many projects are you working on right now? It seems i choose the wrong job!
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Having Italian origin, I'm a huge 'GNOCCHI' fan :-* :-* :-* :arrow:
Funny name for a cat ;)
our other cat's name is PESTO (who we had first), so we needed something to finish our pasta dish ;D
A very famous type of sauce (I made some bottle pack last year ;) ;) ;) ;) ) and very good with the "Linguine" pasta (typically Genoese pasta).
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Ully, nice work ! Although probably still mixed feelings about sanding there right ? ;)
May I ask you a favor ? Could you measure the artwork's birds from top of the head to the bottom of it's foot ? I am just wondering if the stencils for the US cab are the same size as the Euro cab.
Mixed feelings? I almost cried :'(
Regarding the size: the stencils are still rolled up. I'll flat them out over the next couple of days and will give you measurements then. Or perhaps you could posts yours here, which would help me not to forget it ;)
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How many projects are you working on right now? It seems i choose the wrong job!
Too many, sometimes it's difficult not to lose track with all those parts lying around waiting to dry, to be sanded down or to be replaced. Don't you love those school summer holidays? 8)
Right now I'm working on Toobin' (still waiting for the vinyl, otherwise almost finished), Wizard of Wor (waiting for the paint to dry), Joust (waiting for TONS of woodfiller to dry) and Pac-Man (waiting for the paint to arrive). But wait a minute: writing this I just realized I'm not working on anything AT ALL - all I do is WAIT!
PAAAAAAATRIK, let's carry the Defender and the Centipede up into my apartment! :lol:
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Well, you'll have a big work to do under the cab' :-\ It reminds me that I've to do a similar work for my Space Invaders :oops: :arrow:
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/space_invaders/space_invaders_RT63.jpg)
:oops:
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+1 !
(http://gallery.mac.com/andre.huijts/100231/DSCF0372/web.jpg?ver=12086144930001)
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those space invaders cabs look more like water invaders ;)
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while restoration work on the cab's structure continues unnoticedly (well, that's not quite right: lately my mother's neighbours have been complaining about that humming noise during daytime :-[ - i wonder where that is coming from ;)) ... anyway, i'll start again: while restoration work on the cab's structure continues
unnoticedly i'm also trying to figure out what's wrong with the game itself. remember: IT ISN'T WORKING :'(
my first guess is the power transformator because of the humidity the cab was exposed to, so i've carried it home to my place to check it out unhurriedly - more of that later. but when i examined the boards i noticed something :shock:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2549/3861615369_3a5cf891c4_b.jpg)
computer, enlarge!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3595/3861615071_a7a168a45a_b.jpg)
damn, those batteries have corroded! :( let's remove them :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2463/3862398344_d7cfe8edb0_b.jpg)
did you notice that turquoise spot on the first picture in the lower right corner. i was afraid that the leaked batteries might have destroyed the pcb board from the back without being noticable on the front. so i removed the board to have a look underneath. some of the screws holding the board were rusted in (another sign for humid storage of the cab), so i had to drill them out!
here's the turquoise spot again in closeup - see that rusted socket?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/3862398104_94db6e4330_b.jpg)
time to turn the pcb on its back! fortunately (at least from the looks of it) only the batteries' circuit paths have been affected ...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2524/3861616055_97c5e058ed_b.jpg)
i guess those batteries are there to save the highscores, right?
question 1: is it possible that those corroded batteries are responsible for the game not working?
question 2: where do i get the replacement parts for the batteries as shown in the following two pictures?
question 3: is it even a good idea / possible to replace those batteries?
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2610/3861616275_5403479ced_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2554/3862399040_016b76de4d_b.jpg)
i'm afraid the time has come where i have to use my soldering iron :?
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THIS is why I (expleteive deleted) Hate Batteries! :evil: No matter what, they leak. Batteries can go straight to HELL! :twisted:
There has got to be an alternative nowadays!... A conversion etc?
I feel your pain when I saw that picture! :-\
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This is very typical for all Williams games, even pinballs.
To answer your questions:
1) No. Sorry to disappoint you. It's only there to keep settings. (Not sure if it does hi-scores too).
Williams PCB sets are notorious for the large number of problems they develop. Most famous is the RAM's., next the poor connectors used (or too much current through the connectors, whichever way you put it, it's a design fault), more poor connectors (inter-board) connectors and the PSU.
Did I discourage you enough already ?
For all the problems there are solutions. But it's a long, hard road. More later.
2 & 3)
Let me put it this way: You don't WANT replacement parts for that ! The battery holder is a NIGHTMARE. The same happened to my Getaway Pinball CPU board. The PCB tracks under the battery holder were EATEN by the leakage.
So, you want a INSANELY better solution. With a battery that lasts at least 10 years without leaking.
Check it out here: http://www.stickycarpet.com/pinx/defmod.html
or here if you want an EXTREMELY long version:
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/wmsbatt.html
It's VERY easy to do ! And cheaper in the end and NO worries about the batteries leaking....also it saved me from having to fix the PCB tracks.
DO clean up your PCB as good as possible, neutralize the acid with some vinegar !!!
Also.........I know you're going to ignore my suggestion, and I also know you will regret ignoring it later (let's say after about 1 year of trying to get the old boards running) but here goes:
I advice you to use this instead of trying to get the old set running:
http://www.jrok.com/hardware/wsf/
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Here's another version of the battery mod:
http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/techwilliamscpubattery.html
You can get a "kit" from Bob Roberts, which is merely the lithium battery, a holder and a piece of wire. It's ok to order this if you're going to order more parts (like the PSU rebuild kit, a shit load of Williams connectors etc) but I would try to find it locally if you only want the battery replacement mod.
By the way, http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/ is a great source for more Williams mods/repair tips, look under Williams. There it is also explained how to do the RAM conversion.
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Also.........I know you're going to ignore my suggestion, and I also know you will regret ignoring it later (let's say after about 1 year of trying to get the old boards running) but here goes:
I advice you to use this instead of trying to get the old set running:
http://www.jrok.com/hardware/wsf/
:) are you a clairvoyant? 8)
anyway, thx a lot for your detailed answer, it helps a lot and i know for sure that i will be replacing the battery with one of the lost-cost suggestions you made.
as for the board: let me at least TRY to get it working, the multi-board is an option i might be considering once i'm frustrated enough ;)
one more question before i'm OFF for tonight: can i test the boards without the batteries or are they necessary to even get the game booted?
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This is very typical for all Williams games, even pinballs.
I agree, for example my Defender board and I got it : battery holder missing and... and same turquoise spots :evil: :arrow:
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/defender/defin7.jpg)
I would go into the "SYSFPGA / Williams all-in-one" solution too ;)
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Yeah, it's a lovely color isn't it. Was all over some of the IC's on my Getaway pinball too......amazingly they still worked.
Yes Ully you can start the boards without the batteries.
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I hope you can get the board to work, in that case i would go for the Lithium Battery kit modification instead of batteries
in some time batteries will leak again.
clean the connections, or solder the wires for the new battery straight to where the cirquit tracks takes the original connection.
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Oh, and don't get me wrong, I totally support your try to get the boards fixed :D
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the restoration continues ...
two of the four wooden panels where the leg levelers go into are missing completely, the others are - let me put it mildly - unusable :shock:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2659/3881602468_5af2527ffc_b.jpg)
four new scratch-built ;) wooden panels
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2490/3880803827_d4684b2ea5_b.jpg)
and to make this mini-project complete, a package from the states has just arrived :arrow:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3433/3881641174_24dae279ae_b.jpg)
inside, five sets of those wonderful nylon castors which makes the cabinet both stable and quite moveable at the same time
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3035/3881640896_25da6da289_b.jpg)
now on to the cabinet itself again: over the last couple of days i've applied, sanded down, applied, sanded down, applied, ..., countless layers of wood filler to deal with all that water damage to the bottom
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3519/3881601138_c6f8a52844_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2588/3881601400_ebb2ddbece_b.jpg)
additionaly in between, i've used wood hardener to strengthen some of the weaker wooden parts. man, that stuff stinks :o
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2611/3880803193_e60b11fb2f_b.jpg)
but the results exceed my expectations :)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3477/3881601538_bed4441257_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2524/3881601646_c21dc7f6ef_b.jpg)
before :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2572/3842778449_43f4596901_b.jpg)
after :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2542/3881601944_9431bb7632_b.jpg)
before :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2478/3842775175_3319ee32b1_b.jpg)
after :arrow:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3548/3881602276_1ce0888582_b.jpg)
the base of the cabinet: this is like day and night! the water damage at the bottom has been fought successfully :twisted: and all those scratches / holes all over the cabinet have been filled.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2454/3881602144_3be7e8dc95_b.jpg)
to be continued ...
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Great job so far :-*
But ... But... one picture is missing ::)
Yes, I would like to see a picture BEFORE applying the wood filer, a picture just before this one :arrow:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3519/3881601138_c6f8a52844_b.jpg)
I would like to see the amount of wood you've removed before applying the wood filer? 8)
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I would like to see the amount of wood you've removed before applying the wood filer? 8)
i didn't remove that much wood at all. i used a steel brush to brush off dead wood particles, then i used glue and screw clamps to give the base some stability (sometimes it was like a small puzzle: remove the individual pieces, apply glue and re-insert them correctly again). finally, i filled everything up with wood filler. as i've said before: this took several days / multiple layers. i even had a verbal fight with my mother's 60+ years old neighbour because of the sanding noise. he couldn't understand all that sanding i had to do and called the cabinet a "monkey box" :P
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A "monkey box" !! what the h3ll this guy is thinking ! , i would sue him ;D
It's a good feeling to see your treatment Ully ! keep up the good work !
those new leg levelers i recognise from "ikea closets" 8)
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the restoration continues ...
the moment has finally arrived: PAINTING
i'm pretty nervous because i've never used a spray gun before - always rolled on the paint. but using a roller with stencils is NOT recommended, so no matter what, this is the "weapon of choice": 8)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2548/3886708349_a38c592620_b.jpg)
the cab (and the room) has been well-prepared :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2440/3887505426_4e289afb11_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2663/3887505250_1a2878d4da_b.jpg)
here we go, first layer of primer applied, however ...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2505/3887505042_404f3e818c_b.jpg)
... it only looks good on the picture. in reality, i'm not really happy with the result :'(. there are some paint runs, the paint itself isn't as smooth as i had hoped it would be and i had too much spray all over the room. i had done some practising before on spare wood where it worked better. i guess the paint wasn't thick enough (too much thinner) and i used the wrong spray valve.
luckily, this is only the first layer of primer, so every paint run and unevenness will be sanded down, but i must make sure that something like that doesn't happen again once i'm moving to stenciling - otherwise the cab will be ruined :shock:
for now, all i can do is wait for the paint to dry (this will take some time considering it's oil-based paint) and inspect the result closer tomorrow!
note to myself:
- check the viscosity of the paint better
- use a smaller spray valve
to be continued ...
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its always better with spray to do it in layers.... this prevents paint runs
or put the cab on one side so that the "spraysurface" is horizontal
or like you say , the correct viscosity and nozzle
hope for you that you dont need to sand too much for the runs...
(i hate sanding, and also does your mothers neighbour ;))
anyway , its better to have this now in the primer fase then with the masking fase... that would be worse...
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I've read some not so favorable reports on that spray-gun. I do believe this is the HVLP version right ?
I did consider buying this spray gun too but since the "mixed" comments I didn't in the end. Hope your results will improve !
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I've read some not so favorable reports on that spray-gun. I do believe this is the HVLP version right ?
I did consider buying this spray gun too but since the "mixed" comments I didn't in the end. Hope your results will improve !
hvlp-version? no idea. i'm normally not into that type of machine, but saw it being used somewhere on tv with good results. perhaps i'm doing something wrong and i will for sure give it another try, but if the results don't improve, i won't be using it when it comes to stenciling.
i'm open for other suggestions then - don't want to ruin all the hard work i've put into the cab up to now because of the wrong type of equipment!
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HVLP means High Volume Low Pressure.
That's a method that spills less paint and is easier to get good results with (AFAIK).
Check out Spyridon's Pac Man restore. He's doing the stenciling now:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=87614.200
He's using a HVLP gun with a compressor:
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh244/joeo42/Robotron/Gorf/IMG_4965.jpg)(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh244/joeo42/Robotron/Gorf/IMG_4676.jpg)
I'm looking into this since I already own a compressor but I'm not sure if it's powerful enough for this job. The biggest problem is that I don't really have a room to spray a full cab, and I guess doing it outside is not a good idea because of wind.
Spray painting is all about technique. I'm definitely not a pro, but I've seen a pro at work. He made long, steady motion side to side streaks. At the end of the streaks he turned his hand outwards in a swift but not too fast twist of the wrist and then did the streak the other way (lower where he hadn't hit the part yet). It's important to keep the motion of your arm at the same speed. I tried to copy this technique a bit with the spray can and it worked out pretty nice, but a spray-can is still limited at how even you can get the paint.
Don't sweep left-right-left-right or go random.
I'm sure there are tons of videos and instructions on the internet.
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Find those links: http://www.wikihow.com/Paint-with-a-Compressed-Air-Sprayer (http://www.wikihow.com/Paint-with-a-Compressed-Air-Sprayer) ;
http://www.diy-compressors.com/spraying-painting.htm (http://www.diy-compressors.com/spraying-painting.htm) ;
http://painting.about.com/od/landscapes/a/plein_air_paint.htm (http://painting.about.com/od/landscapes/a/plein_air_paint.htm)
Hope find usefull ;) ;)
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the restoration continues ...
it's been a while since you've heard of this, but i haven't been lazy - painting just takes some time. and then there are those "damn roadtrips" which keep you occupied even more ;) anyway, here's where we left off:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2645/4063868509_8e5571a4d5_b.jpg)
after the primer, it's time for the base: MATTE BLACK!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2633/4064618070_1497d55858_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2681/4064617810_01066d4758_b.jpg)
for the artwork i'm using stencils from gamestencils.com. they come in two sets of two pieces: one for the colors yellow and red, the other one for turquoise. after applying the first stencil in the correct position, i'm spraying on the first color: YELLOW!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2480/4064618226_928ffc7b0a_b.jpg)
looking good :)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2544/4063869567_d5c27ea7b6_b.jpg)
see what lies beneath
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2562/4064618796_8cd31b314d_b.jpg)
the premasks for the red color removed - looking even better :-*
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2427/4064618594_0cc4901dc4_b.jpg)
because the first stencil is designed to be used for two colors in a row, the first color (yellow) has to be masked off manually. i H-A-T-E-D it, hated hated hated. this is the suckiest of all the sucky jobs in the world. no fun at all, pure mind over matter. T-O-T-A-L H-A-T-E !!! :evil:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2730/4064619298_835fe688c9_b.jpg)
hate in detail >:( do you see all those damn curves? have i mentioned that i hated that job?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3491/4064619080_6703fc1e5a_b.jpg)
after all the hate has left the building (along with elvis ;)) i can spray on the second color: RED!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2780/4063870767_88b6e75f2e_b.jpg)
where red and yellow collide ...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2637/4063871059_deea254c17_b.jpg)
after letting it dry for days (then weeks, then months), i'm carefully removing the stencils. fingers crossed for this one :ghost:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/4063870911_fd35e386b3_b.jpg)
i'm deeply impressed by the result. doesn't it look wonderful?
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2515/4064619514_b57ef1e8c9_b.jpg)
unfortunately, there's a downside to it :(. well, to be more precise: it's not a downside, it's the other side: when i remove the masking on the other side, the top yellow layer peels off along with the masking in some spots - you can clearly see the black base shining through where the yellow color fell off. damn, this shouldn't have happened. i don't know why it did. i've sprayed both sides simultaneously, used the same paint and let it dry for the same amount of time. i didn't hurry at all when i peeled back the parts of the mask. this sucks big time :'(
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2639/4064620190_225ddf060b_b.jpg)
but i'm not ready to give up :spaceace: i'm masking off the damaged areas to roll on a new coat of paint. hopefully it will stick to the layer underneath this time and the additional paint job won't be visible to blatantly.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2725/4063871413_6ebe0fbc0a_b.jpg)
the whole top layer of the yellow color on the right side of the cabinet doesn't stick too well and i'm afraid that i'll be peeling it back along with the turquoise mask once this has been used. hmmm, not sure yet what to do. let's see how my emergency operation turns out once the newly-applied yellow coat has dried. if it looks crappy, i will remove the yellow top layer manually, get a new stencil for yellow at gamestencils.com and apply the yellow color again from scratch. red is perfect, it's just that freakin' yellow on the right side ...
to be continued ...
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This general view of the job looks awesome :-* :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2515/4064619514_b57ef1e8c9_b.jpg)
I know I'll have to do similar job on my Ms Pac Man, I mean the 'mask off with tape'... and I'm already afraid about doing curves :oops: So afraid that I'm even lazy to start that crazy job now ( :oops: once again).
Regarding the general work on side art ... it's crazy... because... at the end, no one will see the sides of our cabinets, because they will be inside other cabinets... ::) But for some reasons... we have to do it :P ;D
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that looks amazing ully!!!!!!
cant wait to se this baby up and running!
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To encourage you, it's looking great !!!! But uhm....so you're "converting" it from a Joust 2 to a Joust ?
About the taping off, I don't understand that that is needed. This is what the gamestencils.com site says:
Joust stencils come as one full length stencil with all colors in one. The colors do not overlap and this allows for far superior registration. Simply apply the stencil, peel away the next color and paint. repeat until done. Individual color pieces will be marked so you remove them in the correct order!
This doesn't sound what like you needed to do ??
Anyway, the end result will look very tight !! And I share your thoughts, even though they are covered by other cabs, the side-arts needs to be nice ! :D
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To encourage you, it's looking great !!!! But uhm....so you're "converting" it from a Joust 2 to a Joust ?
nope, why do you think so? the sidearts are the same, only different color combinations.
About the taping off, I don't understand that that is needed. This is what the gamestencils.com site says:
Joust stencils come as one full length stencil with all colors in one. The colors do not overlap and this allows for far superior registration. Simply apply the stencil, peel away the next color and paint. repeat until done. Individual color pieces will be marked so you remove them in the correct order!
This doesn't sound what like you needed to do ??
first of all, brian changed the joust stencils from one full length stencil to two smaller ones, one for yellow / red and one for turquoise (well, those are the colors i'm using for joust 2). when you apply the first stencil the premasks for the first color (in my case yellow) has already been removed. i simply spray on the first color. after that i pull of the premask for red. but what would you do next? simply spray on the red color? this would mean spraying over the yellow. in order to avoid that, i have to mask if off - or am i simply stupid? after that i remove the whole stencil, then i apply the one for the turquoise color. the parts that aren't covered need to be masked off by hand.
the description on the homepage sounds easy and i can simply pull off the red premask, but the yellow needs to be protected first! or am i wrong?
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It couldn't be because of the different colors used ritght ?
On Joust 2 the neck of the bird is red, on Joust it's yellow. The man is blue on Joust 2 and red on Joust....
But of course, this shouldn't make a difference as long as you substitute the right colors. What you say sounds like very true....I have 0 experience with stencils so I really don't know, but that line on the site made it sound so easy....
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It couldn't be because of the different colors used ritght ?
you mean the peeling away? nope, because i've used the same colors in the same mix ratio on both sides at the same time, so there shouldn't be a difference. as you can see the left side could be removed perfectly, the problem only occured on the right side. but with a lot of patience (and some hot spiced wine afterwards ;)) the result on the right side will be fine, too. it just needs a lot of time and patience!
On Joust 2 the neck of the bird is red, on Joust it's yellow. The man is blue on Joust 2 and red on Joust....
red for the neck and blue for the rider are exactly the colors i am using. see the comparison pic i've attached to the cabinet on one of the pictures - this comparison pic was taken because sanding down the cabine. the only color i'm changing slightly is the red. i had it color-matched to the red on the control panel and it is another shade of red than the one originally used - nevertheless the colors are still the same. i had been thinking about replacing the black with the purple background color of the panel, but decided against it. i'm vetx happy with the colors!
What you say sounds like very true....I have 0 experience with stencils so I really don't know, but that line on the site made it sound so easy....
that's what i feel for, too ;D i'm just happy that this was my first stencilling job and not pac-man, which looks much more complicated. i guess joust is damn easy in comparison. i simply need to get better equipment if i'm planning on doing more painting jobs. the good thing is that i have a room to do it wittout noone bothering, that's a big advantage!
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Looks fantastic Ully ! :spaceace:
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the restoration continues ...
one more set of stencils to go - TURQUOISE
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2730/4100587403_88957db192_b.jpg)
the rest of the cab has been masked off thoroughly
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2766/4100586925_2ccd786e8e_b.jpg)
turquoise premask removed
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2572/4101342890_8e3e5144fc_b.jpg)
"charge the hose line" ;)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2460/4100587353_7bbcb88a81_b.jpg)
the masks can be removed, the stencil itself has to stay on for a couple of days. DRYING SEASON
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/4101343288_b5dbed2ca7_b.jpg)
after about one week in a warm room, the final set of stencils has to say goodbye
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2782/4100586843_82093fca3c_b.jpg)
this is like unwrapping birthday presents :P
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2784/4100586985_da5239e4f0_b.jpg)
only one thing left to uncover (i've saved the best for last): the williams W
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2751/4100587125_66533f5ce4_b.jpg)
here we go. don't let yourself be confused by the picture: what looks like as if the paint has run underneath the stencil are just paint rests which can be scraped off easily. i'm so excited!!!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2737/4100587073_372500e36e_b.jpg)
the famous williams W - the only thing missing now are the "registered" decals. i'm going to apply them later!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2606/4101342726_be9fe74f89_b.jpg)
WOW!!! WOW!!!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2638/4100586697_e588211a10_b.jpg)
at first glance the other side seems to be perfect, too, but a closer looks reveals that parts of the yellow paint have peeled off with the removal of the stencil :evil:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2537/4100587249_ed0172a8d4_b.jpg)
in detail :'( as stated before, i don't know what was different on the right side of the cab which made the yellow color peel off, but no time to weep: i've already talked to brian from gamestencils.com. he will send me some small replacement stencils to redo the areas were the yellow paint is missing. this is going to be G-R-E-A-T in the end, it just takes a little bit longer!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2598/4101342552_3d2f83fc7a_b.jpg)
to be continued ...
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:spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
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Impressed I am :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
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awsome looking!!!!!!
not :spaceace: but :spaceace: :spaceace: is in order here!!!!
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Wonderful job Ully!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Do you think doing a Euro-Joust would be any harder ? You're most welcome to do one ;D ;D ;D
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Fantastic job Ully!!!! :-* :-* :spaceace: :spaceace:
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thx guys for all those :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace: still a way to go though: repair the damages to the yellow, put on a clear coat, but everything back together and - not to be forgotten - get the game up and running ;) but i'm extremely happy with the results so far compared to the condition the cab was in when i got it!
Do you think doing a Euro-Joust would be any harder ? You're most welcome to do one ;D ;D ;D
thx for the offer, andré, and although it's very tempting ;) i'm afraid i have to pass ;D peeling the stencils off and seeing how the paint job turned out is wonderful and exciting, but getting there is a lot of work. what i hate most about that job is cleaning the equipment after applying the individual colors. i've used oil-based (or latex?) paint, which means you can't simply clean it under runnning water, you have to use thinner to get the paint off and out. this is NO FUN at all!
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looks great! nice job :ghost: :ghost:
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Ully "incidentally" ;) ;) left his Joust 2 PCB at my place since his visit to pick up the Berzerk.
So I thought I'd not wait to long with some very needed work:
The same old problem with Williams boards: Leaking batteries !!! Luckely it's not too bad this time:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100675/DSCF4317/web.jpg?ver=12592520110001)
Backside, some damaged tracks and dull solderings. Have to scrape off all the crud.
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100675/DSCF4318/web.jpg?ver=12592520120001)
Removed the battery pins, not needed anymore and uhm.....they're eaten a bit. Some were quite a battle because of the almost completely eaten solderings, but as always, I won:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100675/DSCF4320/web.jpg?ver=12592520140001)
Next I gave half the board a bit of a vinegar wash. (We call it "cleaning vinegar" here.) It's always fun to see the bubbling when the vinegar reacts to the acid. It's very little on this board luckily though. I had to scrape some of the crud from two diodes but they seem to be OK (will measure them).
After the vinegar has done it's work for some time, did a good rinse with water and then dried with paper towel and hairdryer
Next I cleared the soldering holes of the batteries (to get out the solder).
Next will be installing a new lithium battery plus holder.
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puh, i was wondering where that board was ;)
seriously, andré, thx a lot for doing that for me, can't wait to put it back into the game to test it! and also a HUGE THANKS for taking those pics to document the progress.
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Was digging for IC sockets but found something else useful (that's how it always goes over here :) ):
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100675/DSCF4368/web.jpg?ver=12595299420001)
Of course had to bridge to the main + connection to have it work. It's not a pretty sight, but the acid is gone and as long as it works....
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100675/DSCF4371/web.jpg?ver=12595299400001)
Measured it, and it's happily providing 3.25Volts now. And it will be safe for at least 10 years.
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Clever boy :D
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Clever boy :D
Not me, I got the idea (and even the parts in this case) from good old Bob Roberts:
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/wmsbatt.html
Works great but it's not suitable for any boards that have a rechargeable cell (like Berzerk). Unless you disable the charging circuit (which could be as easy as soldering an extra diode) or use an alternative battery that can be charged.
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the restoration continues ...
it's been half a year since i worked on this the last time, so let's do a very quick recap. the cab has been stencil-painted completely, one side turned out almost perfect (more on that a little while later), on the other side parts of the yellow peeled off. have a look :arrow:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3407/4644747516_7264ffdc39_b.jpg)
of course, i couldn't leave it like that, so the only option was to get replacement stencils for the yellow color and start over again. let me use this opportunity to give a round of applause to brian from gamestencils.com - he's one hell of a guy, always helpful and extremely forthcoming. i contacted him right after the dilemma with the yellow color and he said "don't worry, i'll cut you replacement stencils for the desired parts. just let me know which stencils you need!"
so i took a picture of a joust cabinet and marked the faulty spots for which i needed new stencils in blue
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3384/4644162271_a94e9cf080_o.jpg)
a couple of weeks later, i had to order some parts from brian and he included the replacement stencils in the package. unfortunately, he forgot to cut two of the stencils i needed, so i had to contact him again. i already had a bad conscience because he's got so many projects to work on and i didn't want to waste more of his precious time, but would should i have done? but once again, brian was totally friendly and said he was going to cut me an entire set of new yellow replacement stencils, so that he wasn't going to miss anything this time. if that wasn't already enough, he did all that FOR FREE - what a great guy!!! :-*
it took a couple more weeks until i had to order some parts from the states / from brian again, that's why it took half a year until i was able to continue with the restoration, but it was well worth the wait!
enough talk, let's see some action!
before applying the replacement stencils, i need to remove the layer of yellow which hasn't peeled off yet, but which would do so eventually
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4644130723_1bdb7217f2_b.jpg)
stencils cut to shape and applied
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3373/4644130641_e844889edb_b.jpg)
maximum protection before the spray job
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/4644747910_f511bd9f27_b.jpg)
after giving the paint time to dry for about a week, the protection gets removed! so far, so good ...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/4644748134_3c755ec928_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4644130923_89242cce9c_b.jpg)
let's see if all the hard work paid off - i'm slowly and carefully removing the stencils! Y-E-S - it's working!!! :spaceace:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4644748208_9de29e195b_b.jpg)
i won't be revealing a shot of the entire cabinet right now, because there's something else which has to be done first. after repainting the cabinet i realized that there was an error in the stencils. the dot underneath the helmet's feather needs to be painted in a different color than the feather itself. have a look at the original artwork, i've circled the dot i've been talking about in white. btw, you'll also realize how sloppy the original paintjob had been done! :o
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/4644130555_b4bddc4bc1_b.jpg)
with the stencils i had it turned out that the colors of the feather and the dot are identical. you know that i'm extremely anal about stuff like that and since i still had parts of the stencils left that brian cut for me, i used those to correct that error!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4644131241_a819a4023c_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3371/4644748288_15d2fda09b_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4015/4644748466_2a0ebb8f99_b.jpg)
here we go - now the knight is ready to ride again :-*
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4644250539_9c12831f7e_b.jpg)
i'll be applying a coat of clear on top of the artwork to protect it, but for now I'M THRILLED :)
to be continued ...
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Looks sharp, and what a great artwork, love the color combination.
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i totally agree: JOUST has probably my most favourite artwork, at least it's in the top 5!
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looking super, ully 8)
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Great work Ully. You really are a master of restoration. do you keep track of the hours of work that you spend on the cabs?
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do you keep track of the hours of work that you spend on the cabs?
thx for your support guys! i don't keep track of the time, perhaps i should do so for one of my next restorations. but to be honest, most of the time is spent on waiting for either parts to arrive or stuff to dry ;)! does that count as well?
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no
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the restoration continues ...
now that i'm almost done with the cosmic part, i wanted to find out where i stand on the electronic side of the fence. for that i'm "throwing in" all the wiring, the monitor, the pcbs and the power supplies. "throwing in" is the catchword here, because when i started this restoration almost a year ago, i forgot to take crucial pictures of the internal setup, which meant i had no idea how to set up the game :-[. fortunately, ravage owns a joust 2 as well and he was kind enough to snap some pictures of his machine. this helped me BIG TIME in getting my cab together without having any spare parts - except one strange screw :P. thx rav :-*
when i finally turned on the machine, nothing happened except LED 1 staying dark. from what i've been told, LED 1 is the +5V indicator, which means the power supply is shot and the pcbs don't get the power they need >:(
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/4846632748_fe3ee630bd_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/4846096341_2d1e50f679.jpg)
i've asked around a little bit and the easiest option to fix this and to find out where i stand seemed to be to install a switcher along with a williams power supply conversion kit. luckily at that point, colin "liquidx" from this forum was about to order stuff from bob roberts - so i happily jumped onboard! a little while later, a package arrived :)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/4846503564_d68a71bb1e_b.jpg)
inside, a lot of great arcade stuff, amongst that two power supply conversion kits (one with a switcher for my moon patrol)!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/4846501702_c071ce84c5_b.jpg)
don't you just L-O-V-E bob roberts, he even put on this friendly reminder for us europeans to set the switcher to the correct voltage input!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/4845881507_8b64a346b8_b.jpg)
because i have a spare switcher at home, i only needed the wiring for it - the complete set will be used as a template!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4153/4846502138_7083208684_b.jpg)
everything's hooked up
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/4846502338_7ef3cc44a7_b.jpg)
to install the switcher, you have to remove one connector from the original power supply ...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/4846502486_420b02dff8_b.jpg)
... and plug it into the connector from the switcher!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/4845882373_8141b3f1a6_b.jpg)
the switcher gets it power by splicing two wires into the AV monitor wiring
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/4845882699_9c1ae94596_b.jpg)
finally, a nice spot inside the cabinet for the switcher :)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/4845882589_9690e0cff3_b.jpg)
last thing to do before testing the new power supply: removing the paper slip that andré put in when installing the battery replacement
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/4845882803_7bf97d591d_b.jpg)
ok - let's try this ...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/4846721384_ac2f176951.jpg)
all i get is a grey screen and an 8 (eight) on the pcb's LED display :'(
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4846501460_90baa08ca5_b.jpg)
since i don't have a working multimeter atm, i can't measure anything, but regarding that 8, a guy from KLOV told me the following:
It is telling you it is DEAD! The LED should clear and if any of the POST tests ran and failed there would be a flashing error message. No clear = POST test not started.
Could be bad ROM. Could be dead CPU. Could be dead clock circuit. Or about a dozen other things that would stop the POST from starting.
DAMN!!! that's where i'm stuck right now. any suggestions?
oh, i've noticed two things:
- the monitor produces a loud hum when the switcher is installed, the humming is softer once the old power supply is used and the switcher is removed
- sometimes after turning on the game, there is a sound which sounds like a game start up sound, but since i don't know which sounds joust 2 produces at the start of the game, i can't tell for sure (and i don't have the j2 rom set in mame - perhaps someone could check that for me)
perhaps i should go with bruno's "burger time method". powering the switcher from an external source and only hooking up the +5V on the pcb. however, i need to find out first which wire on which of the zillion connectors is "responsible" for the +5V ...
to be continued ...
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But......does the +5V LED work now ?
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But......does the +5V LED work now ?
nope - should it? isn't the switcher bypassing the original power supply?
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O I thought that LED was on the game PCB not on the original PSU....sorry...
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UPDATE
i've posted my problem on the KLOV forum as well and ken "yellowdog" reminded me that i've probably made an error in the switcher setup - or better: an error in thinking. you know that i'm feeding 230 volts into the machine, BUT let me copy what andré wrote on that subject over at KLOV (hope you don't mind):
"ALL (yes ALL) the arcade machines I've seen here so far run 110V monitors (unless they hacked in a European SCART TV-set).
There was no reason for the manufacturers to switch to a different kind of power supply for the monitors. They only had to use a transformer that had primary windings for all world-wide available voltages, like Atari did. I know many games for the US market only had 110V primary connections, but any stuff that was originally exported to Europe did have a set-up like this. This way the manufacturers didn't have to switch monitor type for the Euro (or other parts of the world) markets."
this means that i'm only getting 110 / 120 volts from the monitor while the switcher is set to operate on 230 volts. since my multimeter is broken, i couldn't measure the voltages when i installed it.
so this morning i went to the home depot to get a cheap transitional multimeter until my fluke arrives from china ;). i paid €6,59 for it - that'll do the trick. ;D
back at my mother's place where the joust 2 is located, i set the switcher to run on 120 volts and got the following measures for AC :arrow:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4142/4859766162_8f2858a06e_b.jpg)
here are the results of the german jury for +5V. was a little bit too high, turned it down to +5.01V later :arrow:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/4859766052_bdb6dda62d_b_d.jpg)
with those results in, i attached the connectors and turned on the machine ...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4859786190_0ce5ab5c4c_d.jpg)
the EIGHT on the LED display is gone, but now i have a new number being displayed: ZERO - still no manual to find out what it means! :(
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4859145953_8d5892f778_b_d.jpg)
the monitor picture changed from "plain simple grey" to the following :arrow:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4101/4859765910_a8e28b6872_b_d.jpg)
for those who don't know the boards, the black blocks represent the joust 2 roms on the pcb. could the ZERO and the monitor display want to tell me that there is a problem with the roms? perhaps i should remove, clean and reseat all of them ...
anyway, that's much better than the last results and one step closer to having this game up and running! i'll keep you posted, watch this space ...
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have you tried asking om KLOV what the 0 means?
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Ully: take a look on this link http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/manualsjoust.html (http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/manualsjoust.html) (manual and other things).
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Ully: take a look on this link http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/manualsjoust.html (http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/manualsjoust.html) (manual and other things).
unfortunately no joust 2 manual there - and joust 1 uses different boards!
have you tried asking om KLOV what the 0 means?
sure, in my joust 2 thread, but the americans are probably just waking up - damn time difference
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have you tried asking om KLOV what the 0 means?
sure, in my joust 2 thread, but the Americans are probably just waking up - damn time difference
..... have patience my young padawan... ;D ;D ;D rise the sun will in time..
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:gPAQnllLkalZjM:http://www.socialedge.org/features/expert-advice/topic_images/yoda.jpg)
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http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/79424-25-tech-joust (http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/79424-25-tech-joust)
look at the second post...
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thx, but i already have the mystic marathan manual. however, i can't find anything in there about the led display either.
btw, i've just removed, cleaned and reseated the roms - nothing has changed :(
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btw, i've just removed, cleaned and reseated the roms - nothing has changed :(
In that case Advancemame is your friend ... at the moment :wink:
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In that case Advancemame is your friend ... at the moment :wink:
not an option atm, i don't even have the mame rom files :P
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In that case Advancemame is your friend ... at the moment :wink:
not an option atm, i don't even have the mame rom files :P
On my FTP in the dir "mame roms", there is something waiting for you ;)
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thx a lot, etienne!
i've just tried it out - working great, i need to get this up and running :spaceace:
the start up sequence is as follows: it does the rug pattern (messy colorful jumble), then puts up the image of the ROMs, and the rom slots turn green as the roms are checked (one stays dark, that's the one socket without a rom), then its "all systems go".
on my machine it goes like this: it does the rug pattern (messy colorful jumble), then puts up the image of the ROMs - but then it stops, so the roms do not turn green. somehow it seems to get stuck in the rom test!
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In that case Advancemame is your friend ... at the moment :wink:
not an option atm, i don't even have the mame rom files :P
On my FTP in the dir "mame roms", there is something waiting for you ;)
hehe, there´s a lot of good stuff on that FTP :spaceace:
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hehe, there´s a lot of good stuff on that FTP :spaceace:
there will be more good stuff on it soon ;)
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Well thats interesting as "0" means operational and generally appears at the end of the test sequence....
I guess it'd be worth checkinf the first rom that turns green in the grid with romident/check as many roms as you can.... You might find a bent leg as you lift a rom or indeed it could be a bad rom or finally a crappy rom socket. Whatever - your well close...
Send me a phot of that battery mod will you =- I did one to mine and got a sneaky idea I put the battery holder in the wrogn way round as after returning in its not saving shizzle!
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i'm waiting :D
sounds like i need to expand the diskspace a little ;D ;D ;D
(http://azerty.nl/_azerty/data/product/6/7/1/67188/img/1/G.jpg)
now only i need some more upload bandwith... >:(
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Well thats interesting as "0" means operational and generally appears at the end of the test sequence....
is the led display supposed to show ZERO or is it supposed to be blank at the end of the tests?
I guess it'd be worth checkinf the first rom that turns green in the grid with romident/check as many roms as you can.... You might find a bent leg as you lift a rom or indeed it could be a bad rom or finally a crappy rom socket. Whatever - your well close...
no idea how to do that! what kind of equipment do i need?
Send me a phot of that battery mod will you =- I did one to mine and got a sneaky idea I put the battery holder in the wrogn way round as after returning in its not saving shizzle!
andré did the battery mod, you can follow it closely on page 4 of this thread along with nice pictures! if you need anything else, just let me know.
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Well thats interesting as "0" means operational and generally appears at the end of the test sequence....
is the led display supposed to show ZERO or is it supposed to be blank at the end of the tests?
I guess it'd be worth checkinf the first rom that turns green in the grid with romident/check as many roms as you can.... You might find a bent leg as you lift a rom or indeed it could be a bad rom or finally a crappy rom socket. Whatever - your well close...
no idea how to do that! what kind of equipment do i need?
Send me a phot of that battery mod will you =- I did one to mine and got a sneaky idea I put the battery holder in the wrogn way round as after returning in its not saving shizzle!
andré did the battery mod, you can follow it closely on page 4 of this thread along with nice pictures! if you need anything else, just let me know.
You will need an EPROM burner to read the EPROMs. Then you can check the read files on-line with this:http://www.system16.com/romident.php
But there's even a better tool that is online, you simply choose the file on your HD and the online tool tells you what ROM it is (or not, then you know it's bad). I can't remember what the URL is though....anyone ?
The screens with garbage in the beginning is testing the RAMs AFAIK. So, you don't even get one ROM to be indicated as good ? The testing of the RAM running is a pretty good sign I guess, at least I think the processor is up and running else it wouldn't do that I guess......
Have you pulled out the ROMs before and put them back in ? Are you sure you put them back in correctly (pin 1 on the correct side, correct ROM in the right socket, you can't move ROMs around between sockets as you can with RAMs). Are ALL pins correctly in the sockets ?
Just to check the basic stuff here...
About the battery mod: HARUMPF !!!
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You will need an EPROM burner to read the EPROMs. Then you can check the read files on-line with this:http://www.system16.com/romident.php
don't have something like that at home, but i could send the roms off to sascha, he has one at his disposal and i'm sure he would check the roms for me. nevertheless, would it be a good idea to get an eprom burner for the future and if so, how much does stuff like that cost?
The screens with garbage in the beginning is testing the RAMs AFAIK. So, you don't even get one ROM to be indicated as good ? The testing of the RAM running is a pretty good sign I guess, at least I think the processor is up and running else it wouldn't do that I guess......
nope, not a single rom turns green!
Have you pulled out the ROMs before and put them back in ? Are you sure you put them back in correctly (pin 1 on the correct side, correct ROM in the right socket, you can't move ROMs around between sockets as you can with RAMs). Are ALL pins correctly in the sockets ?
Just to check the basic stuff here...
checking basic stuff with guys like me is always a good thing, who knows where i could have screwed up ;) ;) ;) anyway, back to your question: i did NOT pull the ROMs before yesterday when i cleaned and reseated them and YES, all the pins are correctly in their sockets. remember, this was advertised as working here on the forum, so i'm sure the guy who sold it didn't mess with the boards.
About the battery mod: HARUMPF !!!
What? OINK, OINK :P
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Do a google on Willem EPROM or look on e-bay.
There's always a lot of discussion about the Willem programmers (Willem (=William in Dutch) was a Dutch guy who once designed a cheap and simple EPROM burner, the design has been around and about and improved ever since).
They are dirt-cheap, you need to hook up a PSU yourself and some say they work great and others say not.
I have no experience with them.
A professional burner is a lot more expensive, you can go up to 1500 Euro's for the most elaborate one (but this one does them ALL).
You can also search KLOV forum about them for loads of info. Usually burning/Reading ROMs is something you will do occasionally. I've read (EP)ROMs a couple of times at work. They always ID-ed correctly so far. Haven't done any actual burning yet.
If you want to buy one, make sure it can handle the old EPROMS like 2716 etc. etc.
Again a question about the ROM testing screen. Does it simply show all the ROMs and stay red, does it go through the check of all the ROMS ? ( I do not know how this works, just want to know if the check stops at the first ROM or goes through each of them) ?
About the Battery: Hey, I'm only human I COULD screw up. But I doubt it in this case ;)
By the way, here is the online version of the ROM identification tool (I love this because it's SO easy to use AND is available everywhere there's internet...):
http://www.coinop.org/RomId.aspx
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Again a question about the ROM testing screen. Does it simply show all the ROMs and stay red, does it go through the check of all the ROMS ? ( I do not know how this works, just want to know if the check stops at the first ROM or goes through each of them) ?
ok, what happens when i fire up the game in mame is the following: first the rug test (messy colorful jumbled screens which is in fact the RAM test), then the picture with the grey ROMs appears, they turn green one after the other, black screen appears with the words "initial tests indicate all systems go" followed by the joust 2 start screen
what happens when i turn on the cabinet: passes the rug test, picture with the grey ROMs appears, but none of them turns green, it simply stays like that. looks as if the ROM test doesn't even start (because otherwise i would guess i would get an indication if one of the ROMs is faulty), game seems to be stuck right before the test is about to begin!
i was just up at my mom's place to fix the marquee lighting and to reseat some other chips when i had a closer look again at the area where the battery once was. check out the following picture - unfortunately i didn't have my macro with me so i couldn't take a more detailed picture :arrow:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4095/4866275182_487c353bf5_b_d.jpg)
looks as if there's some acid damage going on at one of the resistor's legs (circled in red) and corrosion at some other parts (whatever those blue circled thingies are called). could that be causing the problem? if so, is that something i can fix myself or do i have to ask "mr acid-remover andré"? ;D
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while the startup problem still remains unsolved, i fixed another one which had been bugging me: the marquee lighting! neither a change of the starter nor a new bulb did the trick and the voltages were fine, so the only thing that was left to do was exchange the ballast. it wasn't an easy task finding one running on 120V, but thx to you guys from the forum i succeeded in the end. today, the package arrived :arrow:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4866274698_a6a25c8204_b_d.jpg)
installation was easy, i left both the original bulb and the starter in there and turned on the game 8)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/4866274890_10bd1e83a2_b_d.jpg)
sometimes those easy fixes can be extremely rewarding and give you a nice little boost to continue working. all i need to do now is get some purple paint to cover up that ugly scratch on the marquee from behind!
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4866274518_9c310f23a9_b_d.jpg)
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Does it still look aqua-blueish on those spots ? I thought I had hit everything where this stuff was with cleaning-vinegar. If it's looking a bit like chalk, this means that the vinegar did it's work on the base that leaked out of the batteries (it's not acid, because vinegar is the acid that neutralizes the base from the batteries). You can try to remove the chalk like rests with a firm brush or something. You can check if the tracks etc. are still all right with your DVM. (Coninuity check (beep mode) and touch one leg of the part and then look where the track goes and touch the other end of the track with the other lead of your DVM.)
This can hardly be the cause. I think it's fine. This part is far away from all the ROMs, RAMs and CPU's. If this would be giving trouble you'd not get it through the RAM tests.
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Where did you end up buying that old-fashioned ballast ? How much was it ?
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Does it still look aqua-blueish on those spots ?
well, especially the upper leg of resistor R26 definitely looks aqua-blueish and the track below D2 doesn't look too good either!
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Where did you end up buying that old-fashioned ballast ? How much was it ?
Got them from the music shop that sascha pointed me to ...
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Nice to see you succeed on giving light to that marquee Ully (great design :spaceace:)
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Get some "cleaning" vinegar and treat the spots where it still looks "blue".....RINSE very well with water after the "process" has finished.
Then get rid of the chalk-like resisdu.
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i will measure the function of the resistors and the diodes first today, then probably "treat" the board. what do you mean by "rinse"? pour water over the lower parts of the board and let it dry or use some kind of wet q*tip to remove the vinegar?
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Ully: IMO, the best way to "resurrect" a damaged ciruit is replace the compnent/s (I'll do for various pc mobo with capacitors "fatty") or a simple diode blowned on hd's.
The problem (did You already sayd in this post https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=1675.0 (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=1675.0)) is the skill for soldering/desoldering.
For training, You can use a secure non working board camed out from a tv or else, and try to solder/desolder components.
On My soldering station, I'll left the temperature around 310/330 °C and, on the desoldering station, around 400 °C (for fast working).
For the tip of the solder, cleaning head is essensial; I use, afther cleaning a uge work, Like Etienne sayd: "take a (small, I add) grinder, or sandpaper and clean the tip".
Afther the treatment I use "firm paste" (I did'n know if the traslation is correct, in Italian is "pasta salda") that make a cleaning/protective treatment on the tip.
Never use water on any circuit, can left umidity,oxide the contact, etc. etc.
To clean a circuit I use acetone or trichlorethylene, with an old toothbrush; never use alcohol!
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To clean a circuit I use acetone or trichlorethylene, with an old toothbrush; never use alcohol!
andré said i should use 99% alcohol from the chemist ???
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ok, just came back from doing some testing. first of all, with my transitional multimeter i can't perform continuity checks (obviously too expensive to integrate :D).
second, i'm having trouble with two components which you can see on the following picture :arrow:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4867754759_702ba56bb1_b_d.jpg)
the resistor R26 which shows signs of acid damage is testing fine, however the one next to it (labeled R28 and circled in red) should give me a reading of 4700 Ohm with a tolerance of 10 % (yellow - purple - red - silver). i've measured that resistor multiple times now and it only gives me 3200 Ohm :ghost:
then, i've measured the diodes D1 and D2 whose legs look somewhat corroded. this could be the reason why getting a reading of the measures is not always easy, sometimes it works, sometimes i have to move the multimeters tips around a little bit to make it work. D2 is fine, blocking the current in one direction and giving a reading of around 600 in the other. well, at least the video tutorials i've watched on youtube told me that those are good readings ;). D1 (circled in blue) however is also blocking the current in one direction, but gives me a negative reading of around -500 in the other direction. isn't the output always supposed to be positive? i don't know, you're the experts ;D
so, what's up with that resistor and that diode?
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alcohol is "fat", leaves residue (soldering tips from school and other tips form firends that repairs tv's and other electinics things).
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ok, just came back from doing some testing. first of all, with my transitional multimeter i can't perform continuity checks (obviously too expensive to integrate :D).
second, i'm having trouble with two components which you can see on the following picture :arrow:
the resistor R26 which shows signs of acid damage is testing fine, however the one next to it (labeled R28 and circled in red) should give me a reading of 4700 Ohm with a tolerance of 10 % (yellow - purple - red - silver). i've measured that resistor multiple times now and it only gives me 3200 Ohm :ghost:
For testing proupose, normally, You need remove one side and test it now...
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For testing proupose, normally, You need remove one side and test it now...
but all the other resistors test exactly like they are supposed to ... spot on results!
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It depends on how the component is used in the circuit. If there are things in parallel across a resistor f.i., you will measure a lower value than the actual value of that resistor itself. To verify that 100% you would need to unsolder one leg and then measure over the compontent.
If the legs of the diodes are not making good contact, measure them from the solder side. This is where the component makes contact with the rest of the circuits so there is must be good.
You say you don't have a continuity test, but it looks like you do have a diode test, that's almost always the same.....
Even if there is no continuity test, you can always select the ohms setting. A wire, or PCB track should give a reading of about 0 Ohms.
I too am very careful with water but when coming to having to remove base material that has leaked out of the batteries you HAVE to rinse (I'd translate it a bit with spulen Ully) it with an acid (white vinegar, we call it cleaning or household vinegar). However, vinegar is an acid so you have to make sure it is GONE from the rest of the PCB surface and components and water is a good way to do it. Just make 100% you dry everything right away (hair dryer) after using the water and make sure EVERY corner and component is water free. It tends to "stick" in small holes etc.
However Ully, I think you're on the wrong track to repair this board. The components where you see the blue stuff is the diode that protects the battery from being put in in reverser order (if someone reverses the batteries it could blow up parts further up the circuit, that's why they put in that diode to prevent that. The worst thing there could be is that the battery voltage is not reaching the memory. THe only result of that would be that it won't save it's data, nothing else.
Also, you can probably get rid of the blueish stuff using some Q-tips with vinegar, it looks to be very small and it's not in direct contact with tracks or parts.
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alcohol is "fat", leaves residue (soldering tips from school and other tips form firends that repairs tv's and other electinics things).
Nonsense, not the 99% stuff you get from a chemists. It evaporates almost instantly.
Read this (under "Use"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol
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could you check what that guy on klov wrote, please - to me that's technobabble (like the stuff that geordi said on the enterprise :P)
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1291383#post1291383 (http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1291383#post1291383)
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could you check what that guy on klov wrote, please - to me that's technobabble (like the stuff that geordi said on the enterprise :P)
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1291383#post1291383 (http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1291383#post1291383)
From KLOV: "Andykmv: Diode D1 is probably a semtech corp IN5617 diode, which in the specs is listed as a fast recovery 400v 2a diode.
Diode D2 next to it should be a garden variety IN4001 rectifier diode.
not too sure on why you are getting a -ve 500 reading in the diode. the value is the forward voltage. probably stuffed so i would replace it.
Basically the two diodes form a simple switch arrangement so that during normal powered operation, power to the cmos ram circuit is provided by the 5v rail through D1, but when power is shut off, as the power supply circuit drops voltage, it reaches a level at which the battery backup for the CMOS ram takes over powering the cmos ram via D2 (around 4.7 volts iirc), and the cmos ram is write inhibited to prevent writing spurios data to cmos during shutdown..
R28 supplies power to the circuit that controls whether or not info is stored in the cmos ram, so if it is NOT getting power to that circuit, the game may want to come up in bookkeeping mode.
measure the voltage of at pin 11 IC51 (should be a 7425 or 74ls25 IC) - it should be roughly 4.75 to 5v with the game ON. you may also need to check the transistors
i would also check the operation of ZR1 (far left, 6.8v zener diode) and replace if the voltage is incorrect,
also the resistor, capacitor, transistor compoonents around that area are part of the RESET circuit which you really want operating properly. as yellowdog said, i would desolder any corroded components and replace with new components and fresh solder. inclding R28 & D1 (if you dont have an IN5617 avail, try an IN4001 temporarily) "
Andykmv is just sayng what tipe of diode are D1&D2 and which type You can choose to sobstitute.
R28 power the circuit of the ram, if it didn't work the game start in "bookkeeping mode".
Try to check on the IC51, the pin 11 for the voltage (between 4.75v and 5v game powered); also check the transistor aroun the IC.
For the ZR1 (is the diode zenere near the place of the batteries), check if put out 6.8V, otherway, replace.
In particular, chech the Reset circuit zone all the resistor, capacitor and transistor.
Yellowdos suggest to replace directly (whitout testing) all desoldered and corroded components included the R28, R26, D1 & D2.
Level42: alcohol isopropilic and "normal" alcohol are different.
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Sorry for pushing this up Ully, but did you had some progress on this awesome cabinet?
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don't worry, push-ups are nice ;) 8)
update on this: got the roms back from sascha, one had a bent / broken leg (but i guess this happened during removal), sascha has burned a new one for me. some guy on klov suggested to try something else, but i'll have to install the roms for that test first. however, i'm working hard on the jungle king atm in the room where the joust 2 is stored. working hard means filling, sanding, filling, sanding, filling, sanding, ... - which produces a lot of dust. because of that, the joust 2 is wrapped up entirely to keep it clean. i'll be done with the cabinet repair part on jungle king probably tomorrow, so i'll have time to do some test on j2 at the weekend!
thx for asking :spaceace:
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Remember to give a crimp to the connector from the CPU board to the ROM board before testing ;) (on KLOV someone reported that the connector sometimes is faulty).
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made some progress on my joust 2 - remember: it didn't start the rom test!
a friendly guy from KLOV (thx andy :-*) recently picked up a joust 2 himself, got it up and running and kindly offered to help me solve my joust 2 problem by comparing values of his machine with measures taken on mine - therefore slowly but surely isolating and eliminating the problem. before we could get going, i had to buy some testing equipment (mostly cables) and print-out the mystic marathon schematics which are extremely close to the joust 2 ones (which for some obscure reason don't seem to exist - or at least are not around). when i had done my homework, we wanted to start with some simple tests to ensure i'm able to read schematics and understand what he's telling me to do. so far, so good ...
one of the first tasks i got was to measure the voltages on a certain capacitor. that capacitor however was soldered very closely to the board, which meant i had to take the measures from the back of the pcb. however, the board was still fixed to the metal plate inside the cabinet, so in order to get to the back of the board i had to remove some screws and pull the board out a little bit. turned off the game, removed the screws, pulled out the board, attached the lead hooks from the multimeter, turned the game back on for the electricity to flow through the board and guess what ... i hear a sound from the front which i hadn't heard before.
i anxiously walk around the cabinet to have a look at the monitor and here's what i see :arrow:
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1254/5110425890_a7a2a2216a_b_d.jpg)
the test sequence has gone through the rom test, all the roms have turned green - yeah baby :spaceace:
what follows is what i will call the "baritonomarchetto effect" from now on, because the same thing which went down on his joust is happening on my joust 2!
after the successful rom test, the following screen appears :arrow:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5110425516_066d37b298_b_d.jpg)
another good sign! up next: this :arrow:
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1133/5110425630_0d18eda9f0_b_d.jpg)
the hi-score battery is installed on my pcb (thx again, andré :-*), so i should be able to leave the bookkeeping settings by pressing the advance button (one of three three buttons behind the coin door) - at least that's what i thought!
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1065/5109866059_9e49bc20a5_b_d.jpg)
however, pressing either of these buttons doesn't change a thing, the screen remains stuck in the bookkeeping screen. i've read somewhere that this could be caused by a closed coin door (which holds the interlock switch in position) and since i'm working from behind the cab, i'm opening the coin door to release the interlock switch, but nothing changes at all. i push and pull the interlock switch manually, but with no effect: still got the bookkeeping screen on the monitor! :'(
it looks as if the three buttons and the interlock switch are not getting any power and are therefore not responding, making it impossible to leave the bookkeeping screen and to start a game. and before you ask: YES, the wires are connected! i have no idea what to measure where and andy from KLOV isn't around this week, so perhaps someone else has an idea on what to do ...
don't get me wrong, i'm totally happy with where i am now compared to weeks ago and i have the feeling i'm extremely close to finally being able to play my first round of joust 2 on this cabinet - it only needs that final touch!
anyone know how to solve the baritonomarchetto effect?
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I dont remember what happens when the advance button is pressed after bookkeeping are cleared, but for sure the next time you switch off and then on your machine the game should start. Looks like your machine doesn't sense that the switches are closed.
Try to see if the two switches (the one that sense the back door and the one sensing the front door) are correctly working. I made the test using my multimeter: when you "close" the switch you should have continuity between the two pins (essentially the interlock is grounded).
If this doesn't give you results, try grounding directly the interlock pin (not sure where's on the Joust 2 PCB, but on joust it's on the CPU board).
If the 2 interlock switches are working, you have a problem on the interlock sensing circuit and you will need a logic probe to check this.
Anyhow, the "baritonomarchetto effect" :D is actually more related to CMOS RAM problems (i cannot get rid of ATM :'( ;D)
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I dont remember what happens when the advance button is pressed after bookkeeping are cleared, but for sure the next time you switch off and then on your machine the game should start. Looks like your machine doesn't sense that the switches are closed.
agreed, but as i've said: the advance button is not working. turning the game off and then on again doesn't change a thing, game comes up in bookkeeping!
Try to see if the two switches (the one that sense the back door and the one sensing the front door) are correctly working. I made the test using my multimeter: when you "close" the switch you should have continuity between the two pins (essentially the interlock is grounded).
the switch on the backdoor is working perfectly, i can pull it out with the backdoor open and the game starts. no reaction at all on the coin door interlock switch, nothing happens, no matter whether i pull or push it. did i understand you correctly: for a test of the coin door interlock switch, i "close" it by pushing it in (as if the coin door were closed) and then - with a multimeter - i check for continuity between the two pins to which the interlock switch is soldered? is that correct?
If this doesn't give you results, try grounding directly the interlock pin (not sure where's on the Joust 2 PCB, but on joust it's on the CPU board).
how do i do that? and what about the other three buttons? are they supposed to be working once the interlock switch is "closed" / grounded?
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agreed, but as i've said: the advance button is not working. turning the game off and then on again doesn't change a thing, game comes up in bookkeeping!
The same result happens if one of the switches are bad, so my suggestion was to check if the switches are ok first. To check the advance button, check the button itself for continuity when depressed : it's a NO (normally open) switch so when up is open, when depressed down is closed. The inverse is true for the autoup/manual down switch which is NC (normally closed). Then check if its connected to the board and if you have contiuity between the two pins (advance and ground) when depressed.
the switch on the backdoor is working perfectly, i can pull it out with the backdoor open and the game starts. no reaction at all on the coin door interlock switch, nothing happens, no matter whether i pull or push it. did i understand you correctly: for a test of the coin door interlock switch, i "close" it by pushing it in (as if the coin door were closed) and then - with a multimeter - i check for continuity between the two pins to which the interlock switch is soldered? is that correct?
With the backdoor OR the front door open the game should go to the test, and the game (meaning the playable game) should not start. The white switches (and i refer to the white objects themself, nothing to do with the game board) have couples of pins (2 or 3 couples, dont remember) that are connected when the button is pressed, not connected when it is released (like a microswitch). Check if they are ok or not. The check of all this buttons/switches can be done with the game shut down, it's only an hardware check.
how do i do that? and what about the other three buttons? are they supposed to be working once the interlock switch is "closed" / grounded?
Only for testing pourpouses, grounding the interlock pin (connect it directly to the ground) will help you figuring out if the problem is in the white switches themself or on the board. If the bookkepping screen is shown, there's a problem on the interlock circuit. If the game starts one or both your white switches are bad.
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ok, had some time in between hours to do some testing. here are my results so far:
- both interlock switches are physically fine
- both interlock switches react to the continuity test once they are pressed
- the advance and the highscore reset button react to the continuity test only when they are being pressed
- the autoup / manual button reacts to the continuity test only when it is NOT pressed
- i have followed the autoup / manual button wires to the board and checked for continuity there - beeeeeep!
- haven't been able to check the wires of the other two buttons though because i was running out of time
summary: so far all the tests have provided the results one could expect from a working set of buttons / switches, guess there must be a problem on the interlock circuit then, right? but: can the interlock switch on the backdoor work and the one on the coin door does not? aren't they both using the same circuit?
input please :) 8)
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Your inputs dude ;D
summary: so far all the tests have provided the results one could expect from a working set of buttons / switches, guess there must be a problem on the interlock circuit then, right?
It's a possibility but we have a couple of other check before stating this
but: can the interlock switch on the backdoor work and the one on the coin door does not? aren't they both using the same circuit?
They use the same circuit (they are connected to the same cable, at least on joust), so if at least one phisical switch is bad, the result is negative.
Now, you have a couple of things to check in my opinion before going to deal with the circuit
- check the battery. I know that Andrè made the work, but it's possible that moving (shipping?) the board the connection to the board has gone bad (it happend to me with the final version of my battery hack... nothing to do with the hack i uploaded some time ago :oops:). To do this, check the voltage between ground and something (for example a diode leg... it is probably the first thing you will encounter following the track) connected to the track connected to the other battery end (the positive one). This will help you check for real juicing between the battery holder and the PCB.
- enter test mode by depressing the "advance" button, switching off then on the machine and by keeping pressed the "manual down" button: what happens? You should be able to perform a one-by-one test instead of the "all-in-one" test. If not, there's ALSO something on the wiring of the 3 switch.
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- check the battery. I know that Andrè made the work, but it's possible that moving (shipping?) the board the connection to the board has gone bad (it happend to me with the final version of my battery hack... nothing to do with the hack i uploaded some time ago :oops:). To do this, check the voltage between ground and something (for example a diode leg... it is probably the first thing you will encounter following the track) connected to the track connected to the other battery end (the positive one). This will help you check for real juicing between the battery holder and the PCB.
i don't quite understand where to put which lead from the multimeter, is it possible to mark two spots on either of andre's pictures?
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100675/DSCF4368/web.jpg?ver=12595299420001)
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100675/DSCF4371/web.jpg?ver=12595299400001)
- enter test mode by depressing the "advance" button, switching off then on the machine and by keeping pressed the "manual down" button: what happens? You should be able to perform a one-by-one test instead of the "all-in-one" test. If not, there's ALSO something on the wiring of the 3 switch.
just to clarify: i turn on the machine with the advance buttons pressed (and auto-up?), this brings me to the bookkeepings (what's the use of depressing the advance button, the machine comes up in bookkeepings anyways?!?). from the bookkeepings screen, o turn off the machine, press down the middle button to manual-down (do i have to keep it pressed or is it ok if it "locks" in?) and turn the machine on again? i'm a little bit puzzled as you can see :-[
would be great if you could clarify this a little bit further, i can't do the tests today because i'd have to go to my mother's place, but i'd like to make it noob-proof before going over tomorrow ...
by the way, what's up with arcade guys storing stuff at their mother's place? greetings to bruno and etienne from ully :P ;)
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If i see well, with the voltmeter check between the hole (it must be grounded so you can measure from it) and the diode leg
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3776/joust2batterycopy.jpg)
You should measure 3V (maybe something less). If there's no voltage you have a bad connection from the battery holder. If there's less than 2V it is possible that one of the 2 diodes (the one arrowed and the one close to it) is bad (one of those should essentially stop the board being juiced from the battery: if it's bad the battery juice all the board, even when switched off, and the battery goes low fast).
just to clarify: i turn on the machine with the advance buttons pressed (and auto-up?), this brings me to the bookkeepings (what's the use of depressing the advance button, the machine comes up in bookkeepings anyways?!?). from the bookkeepings screen, o turn off the machine, press down the middle button to manual-down (do i have to keep it pressed or is it ok if it "locks" in?) and turn the machine on again? i'm a little bit puzzled as you can see :-[
This request was only to avoid other sources of problems to the board: i wanna see if the board reports no error at all when selftesting.
Well, try this path: depress the avance button, turn the machine off, then on THEN keep "manual up" depressed for more than 3 seconds. This should (but, as always, i refer to joust) let you see the RAM/ROM tests, CMOS RAM etc. When i had the problem of bookkeeping always coming up, the machine also reported a CMOS RAM error that, possibly, is the cause (or one of the causes) of the problem.
PS: Paperboy and PunchOut!! are both at my father place :D
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You should measure 3V (maybe something less). If there's no voltage you have a bad connection from the battery holder. If there's less than 2V it is possible that one of the 2 diodes (the one arrowed and the one close to it) is bad (one of those should essentially stop the board being juiced from the battery: if it's bad the battery juice all the board, even when switched off, and the battery goes low fast).
i've went to my mother's place during one of the school breaks quickly and had about 5 minutes to do some measurings - hope i didn't get any wrong results because of the hurry! well, the voltage measures for the battery came up with 0.91 volts :o
when you were talking about the 2 diodes which may be malefunctioning, i remember that someone else on the klov forum was already talking about this. i had posted a picture of the battery area because i had the feeling that there was still some corrosion / acid damage going on. have a look at the following picture :arrow:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4867754759_702ba56bb1_b_d.jpg)
i did NOT remove any components from the board to get the following results:
- the resistor R26 which shows signs of acid damage is testing fine, however the one next to it (labeled R28 and circled in red) should give me a reading of 4700 Ohm with a tolerance of 10 % (yellow - purple - red - silver). i've measured that resistor multiple times now and it only gives me 3200 Ohm.
-then, i've measured the diodes D1 and D2 whose legs look somewhat corroded. this could be the reason why getting a reading of the measures is not always easy, sometimes it works, sometimes i have to move the multimeters tips around a little bit to make it work. D2 is fine, blocking the current in one direction and giving a reading of around 600 in the other. well, at least the video tutorials i've watched on youtube told me that those are good readings . D1 (circled in blue) however is also blocking the current in one direction, but gives me a negative reading of around -500 in the other direction. isn't the output always supposed to be positive?
you can find my old thread about this on KLOV here (http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=144401&highlight=joust&page=6)!
i guess it would be a good idea to replace those diodes and resistors ...
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Hi Ully,
I don't know anything about your PCB, but I have some remarks: The value that you measured from the resistor can be good, because you don't know circuit surrounding it. So measuring with all parts soldered in can give you wrong results, because you don't know what exactly you measure. The value that you are measuring there might be the one of other resistors or you measure a parallel circuit or something else.
About the negative voltage: try swapping the red and black sticks of your multimeter and the measuring points (not plugging them in and out, just use the other measuring point).
Anyway, I hope you get that fixed soon! :)
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I don't know anything about your PCB, but I have some remarks: The value that you measured from the resistor can be good, because you don't know circuit surrounding it. So measuring with all parts soldered in can give you wrong results, because you don't know what exactly you measure. The value that you are measuring there might be the one of other resistors or you measure a parallel circuit or something else.
that's why i wrote "i did NOT remove any components from the board to get the following results". as far as i know, those measures should be done with at least one leg removed ...
About the negative voltage: try swapping the red and black sticks of your multimeter and the measuring points (not plugging them in and out, just use the other measuring point).
thx, but i think i tried both variations. i will go over it again tomorrow though, just to make sure!
Anyway, I hope you get that fixed soon! :)
me too, after all that painting and repairing, I WANT TO ENJOY THAT GAME!!! :)
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If the diode stops completely current flow in one direction it should be ok, no matter what is measured on the other side (even if a negative value is nonsense: it's a resistance and it's always positive).
The voltage value is low and can be the cause of yor board "failure". Try removing the battery from the board and measure the voltage directly
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The voltage value is low and can be the cause of yor board "failure". Try removing the battery from the board and measure the voltage directly
on the same two spots for the multimeter leads - diode leg and "ground hole"?
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No Ully: remove the battery from the battery holder. If the voltage of the battery ALONE is 0.9V the holder is ok and the battery went low (maybe because of some bad diode). If the voltage of the battery itself is higher the holder needs reflowing
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thx a lot, i'll do some more testings tomorrow in the afternoon! it's time to watch soccer now :spaceace:
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Have fun :D
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Also DO NOT MEASURE ON THE LEGS but on the solderings on the solder side. The legs obviously have some external corrosion, but this doesn't mean that the legs themselves are bad or the part....
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i've just come home with the sole battery voltage results:
0.90 volts !!!
the last time andré measured it after his battery installation, the result was something like 3.25 volts, so something must have sucked up that voltage somewhere ... >:(
questions:
- can i put in a new battery for a short one-time test run without the voltage being drained out of it immediately?
- or is something blocking / draining the correct voltage, no matter whether i have a new battery installed or the old one?
- how can i test which component(s) is (are) malefunctioning? logic probe? multimeter?
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Was it maybe shorted by something conducive ?
You can put in a new battery for a short time to test.
But....is the board still not working at all or is it just that it won't keep the scores ? Sorry I lost track....
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But....is the board still not working at all or is it just that it won't keep the scores ? Sorry I lost track....
no problem ;). it passes the rom test now, but it won't start the game because it remains stuck in bookkeeping. the switches which should allow to exit the bookkeeping screen aren't responding which could be caused by a low battery or an error in the interlock circuit (which could be the cause for a low battery). i will put in a new one later for testing purposes and report back with my results!
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(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1253/5123095675_39ba42e5a8_z_d.jpg)
bought a new battery today and measured it for correct voltages before putting it in - just to make sure i didn't buy a dead one! :ghost:
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1093/5123692806_f58aa9f5ac_b_d.jpg)
turned on the game, bookkeeping screen comes on. however: this is supposed to happen once a new battery is installed to reset / clear / restore certain statistics
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1133/5110425630_0d18eda9f0_b_d.jpg)
after that, the game has to be turned off and with the bookkeepings cleared, the game should come up in attract mode ...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/5123090443_5b9628ce3a_b_d.jpg)
YES!!!
as you can see, the screen orientation isn't set up correctly yet, but that's an easy fix ;D
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5123693018_cc5d3616c6_b_d.jpg)
the game credits up and plays nicely! unfortunately, a new problem came up: there is no speech :(
damn, will this ever end? :evil:
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No it will never end, it's a part of this hobby....electronics of 30 years ago....would you step in a plane controlled by 30 years electronics ? ;)
Anyway, we now need to know why the battery drained so quickly....Bring the board next week ully, I will show you how to check it.
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No it will never end, it's a part of this hobby
it will end if you put a computer inside your cabs ... ;)
Anyway, we now need to know why the battery drained so quickly....Bring the board next week ully, I will show you how to check it.
great, thx! i've already learned some nice stuff from you, but i'd love :-* to expand my knowledge! do we need both boards or just the one with the battery?
btw, how difficult is it to check / repair / rebuild the original power supply? i'm still running the game on a switcher which is powered through the monitor. wouldn't it be better to use the original setup?
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120638505792&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
:P :-* ;D
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Nice to see the game is almost playable! One step further dude ;)
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120638505792&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
:P :-* ;D
that's not for joust 2, bela :P
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Nice to see the game is almost playable! One step further dude ;)
yeah, let's see what happens after that :-[? any input on the speech issue?
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I had no problems with mine (on the speech side, at least), so ATM i cannot be of "fast" help
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just got back from another J2 test round:
- battery voltage still holding steady
- all the rom / rom / cmos tests are passed successfully
however: the sound test cycles through 15 different sounds, but only sounds 1 - 4 can be heard, sounds 5 - 15 stay silent :(
i don't know if J2 uses an individual chip for both sound and speech, but there seems to be a problem somewhere somehow!
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Ully, as far as I remember, I had a piece of paper under the battery until I delivered it to your place. Did you by any chance put it back in the anti-static bag I brought it in ? This could have shorted the battery terminals and thus drawn the battery.
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Ully, as far as I remember, I had a piece of paper under the battery until I delivered it to your place. Did you by any chance put it back in the anti-static bag I brought it in ? This could have shorted the battery terminals and thus drawn the battery.
you remember correctly, the paper piece was still there. i simply pulled it out when the resto was finished and never did anything else. what exactly should / could / might i have put back in the anti-static bag? the whole pcb?
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Yeah..if the PCB would have been back in the bag without the little paper isolating the battery it could drain because of the conductive inside of the bag.
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nope, that i didn't do! i removed the paper slip right before my tests.
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Ully was here tonight and I replaced D2 with a Schottky diode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_diode) so it "eats up" much less energy (voltage drop was now 0,01V instead of about 0,4V with the old diode. This should improve the battery draining dramatically.
I had to improvise the soldering (cut the body of the old diode and soldered the new one to the old legs) because I didn't think I could get the old solderings removed properly on the solder side of the board.
There's no leaks or bad tracks up to the RAM that the battery supports.