Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle

General Chat => Arcade Lifestyle => Topic started by: ckong on June 24, 2015, 09:14:27 PM

Title: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on June 24, 2015, 09:14:27 PM
As some of you know I recently got a nice Tempest, which came to me with C7:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200011_zps5f06b0e4.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200011_zps5f06b0e4.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200012_zps83d2aac1.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200012_zps83d2aac1.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200013_zps85cfb7ab.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200013_zps85cfb7ab.jpg.html)

As you can see, the cab is cosmetically still in very nice shape. I need to replace the marquee and the CPO, but that's about it. Oh yes, and the non-original spinner knob of course, I have a donor available (spare one from a Breakout CP, thanks Ully  :-* ).

This week I finally had some time to start working on it. First job was of course a good clean of the outside because it got dirty over the years. With the help of some magic sponzes all dirt went away, the sides are almost fresh again. No pictures unfortunately, forgot to take them.  :-\

I do have some pictures of the inside:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200009_zps921936a3.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200009_zps921936a3.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200010_zps596c7f55.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20pictures%20USA/P7200010_zps596c7f55.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070764_zpsyylkpqfu.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070764_zpsyylkpqfu.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070765_zpsl6emsdt3.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070765_zpsl6emsdt3.jpg.html)

Very dirty power supply unit, yes I know. And someone did a hack on the fuse block, will have to undo that. BTW, does anyone has a spare fuseblock protection cardboard 'thingie"?

Nice aspect is that the the cab, the AR board, the power supply and the gameboard have a matching serial number, 6447

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070767_zpslfjcad7o.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070767_zpslfjcad7o.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070769_zpsbx8cdjvo.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070769_zpsbx8cdjvo.jpg.html)

The gameboard is still pretty clean, although I see some repairs. Backside:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070773_zps1xpj0dik.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070773_zps1xpj0dik.jpg.html)

Does the game work, you all wonder? Well, to be honest I don't know.  ???  The previous owner didn't know if it was working and he didn't have the means to test it.  :o  However, he sold it for a very good price, certainly worth the risk.

Today, for the first time, I had a look at the internals, and I'm sure that he couldn't have seen a picture on the tube, because of these two suckers on the chassis:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070775_zpsuktmxvfx.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070775_zpsuktmxvfx.jpg.html)

I replaced them of course, but I still can't power the game. Reason: I bought the game without the backpanel, the seller couldn't find it. Stupidly enough he tried to move the game with a trolley situated at the back and one of the handgrips busted the neckboard! The neck of the monitor wasn't damaged, fortunately, I hope!  8)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070782_zpszknlqmce.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070782_zpszknlqmce.jpg.html)

However, the damage didn't seem too bad, the seller gave a pretty nice discount, I still wanted the game.  :)

The hilarious thing is that after the accident happened, he did find the backdoor! Which had a nice surprise:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070761_zpsmwzfplw2.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070761_zpsmwzfplw2.jpg.html)

What will be the next steps:

1. Check out the damage on the neckboard and repair it
2. Try the game out
3. Get some nice artwork (marquee and CPO)
4. Have a lot of fun with this game for years to come

At least, I hope that I don't encounter other technical issues.  :lol:

Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on June 24, 2015, 09:16:23 PM
OK, about the neckboard. I checked it with a continuity meter and there are only two torn traces, see the red arrows. Two other solder joint are damaged (bent), but they still connect. See the yellow arrows. Finally, two other joints, at the green arrows, are also situated at the San Andreas Break, but they 'trace' away from it.  :)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070787_zpsejkumgf7.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070787_zpsejkumgf7.jpg.html)


I will (re)connect the joints at the red and yellow arrows (yellow because I want to be sure that they won't break in the future). What is the best way to do this? Seeing the little damage and the small crack, I would think just using some wire should do the job. If so, which gauge?

I won't use hotglue after the repair, because I will never be able to get at the repaired section again without damaging much more. Besides, if the neckboard is on the neck, then it is on the neck!  ;D It sits there firm and tight.

BTW, I'm so glad that they didn't use a multi-layered pcb.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: anunaki on June 24, 2015, 09:18:53 PM
great looking cab Erik, goodluck with your work on it :)
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: blackie63 on June 24, 2015, 09:36:51 PM
one day i shall have a tempest such a cool game  ;D  :spaceace:
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on June 24, 2015, 09:53:38 PM
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/bnb.html
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on June 24, 2015, 10:14:30 PM
Thanks. Yes, I've seen that article before, and it's a good way to repair a totally broken board. But mine has far less damage and doesn't need a complicated surgery. In my case, a surgery with local anesthetic should do. But you know what, I will show the board to some experts this weekend and hear their advise.  ;D

Oh wait, you meant of course, use paperclips instead of wire!  :)  Yes, that is the way to go. No glue though.

Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on June 24, 2015, 10:25:03 PM
Yup....although I'm not too sure about the conductivity of paperclips.....it's sure no copper ! I would use some solid core wire instead (the stuff we use for home electricity installation, you know, brown, blue, black wires.). The thicker the better. Will also solder better I think.

Might be a good idea to make some mechanical support, not glue but something that will "carry" the forces....if you catch my drift..... ;)
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on June 24, 2015, 10:34:18 PM
....I would use some solid core wire instead (the stuff we use for home electricity installation, you know, brown, blue, black wires.). The thicker the better. Will also solder better I think.

Good idea, I have lots of this home-electrical wire.  :)
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on June 25, 2015, 09:19:40 PM
Repaired the crack in the neckboard today:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070793_zpsldqtk2mh.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070793_zpsldqtk2mh.jpg.html)

And while I'm at it, I might just as well pull out the other boards, clean them a bit and do a visual inspection.

WG 61 deflection board, with an input protection circuit pcb mounted:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070794_zpsj3jltznh.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070794_zpsj3jltznh.jpg.html)

Wow, look at the heat spot caused by R100!!  :o  Is that normal?

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070795_zpsvj9tlkib.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070795_zpsvj9tlkib.jpg.html)

It caused the trace getting loose on the backside:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070798_zps9e5u9zfr.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070798_zps9e5u9zfr.jpg.html)

Have to pay attention to this spot. The AR board was surprisingly clean and seems to be in good condition

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070802_zpsi8fyloqc.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070802_zpsi8fyloqc.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070803_zpsqptgs128.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070803_zpsqptgs128.jpg.html)

The trafo brick however is very dirty, will have to clean that and undo the fuse-mod:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070801_zpswmyw9a3g.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070801_zpswmyw9a3g.jpg.html)

Can it run on 230V input? Will have to investigate that.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ajhippel on June 25, 2015, 09:33:54 PM
atari power supplies usually have a "voltage plug"...

with the right plug it will run on 230v... (on your pic is a voltage plug with yellow cables) that means, according to the schematics 120volts source ...

http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Atari_Kee/Tempest/Tempest_DP-190-2nd-01B.pdf

in the schematics you can see how to "convert" it if you don't have the right plug anymore...

(upper left part)

the yellow plug has for 120 volts...

* a cable from pin 9 to pint 7
* a cable from pin 8 to pin 4 to pin 1
* a cable from pin 6 to pin 3

to transfer it to 240 volts

* remove the cable of pin 4 from the plug and isolate it - pin 8 to 1 should stay...

* remove the pin 6 from the plug and put it into pin 4.

so there will be only a connection from 8 to 1, from 4 to 3 and 9 to 7.


it's a bit tricky to remove the pins..but worth it...

(normally the european atari cabs has all plugs delivered...only the us not...
so if you have an european atari cab, check if there is a brown or a blue plug... (220 or 240 volts)..
then you can use this one.




Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on June 25, 2015, 09:39:32 PM
Thanks. Yes, I have an Euro Centipede and a US Black Widow and Asteroids running on 230V. Tempest will follow.  :)

Remember, Erik, to replace the 'incoming' fuse for half the value.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on June 25, 2015, 09:41:23 PM
Yup. Another proof that Atari rules. What other factory made it that easy ?

Be sure to mark your adapter plug if you change it though....I've done it once or twice....it's easy enough.

I think those copper wires look better than paperclip :)

Pretty rare to see an input protection board....cool. Looks very professional huh....another "thrown together" piece of proof of Wells Garnder's quality...

Quote
Wow, look at the heat spot caused by R100!!  Shocked  Is that normal?

It's a 6100, of course it's normal !

:D

In fact, it's more normal to see it than not....

No problem, you're going to install a LV2000 anyway.....right ? :D
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on June 25, 2015, 09:43:44 PM
Quote
Wow, look at the heat spot caused by R100!!  Shocked  Is that normal?

It's a 6100, of course it's normal !

:D

In fact, it's more normal to see it than not....

No problem, you're going to install a LV2000 anyway.....right ? :D


Yep, the Light version. Will order it soon.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: vernimark on June 26, 2015, 10:40:41 AM
Wow you're doing a great work  :spaceace:
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on June 27, 2015, 06:18:11 PM
I cleaned and polished the power brick. It has lots of rust spots though which can't be polished away unfortunately. But it is clean and it is ready to take 230V! The fuse-mod that was present has also been undone and a homemade fuse-protection shield added. And the power coard now has an European wallplug.  :)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070804_zpsmonnmuht.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070804_zpsmonnmuht.jpg.html)

Next step will be checking all the voltages. Step by step.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 04, 2015, 02:53:27 PM
Voltage check results of the power brick (connector J5):

measured 14.04V DC on pin 1, 2 and 3. Should according schematic be 10.6V DC. Measured voltage is 32% higher.

measured 6.1V AC on pin 8/9. Is according schematic.

measured 23.5V AC on pin 10/11 and 11/13 and 47V AC on pin 10/13. Should be 50V AC . Measured value is 6% 'too low'.

I know that the DC values are unregulated values. Is this also the case for the AC values and is the measured 47V AC too low?

The marquee lights gets 120V AC and is shining nice and bright. I love the Tempest marquee, it's so out of the ordinary.  :)

Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: joeks on July 04, 2015, 03:36:50 PM
Good job Erik! Interesting to read.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 04, 2015, 09:39:10 PM
I checked the AR II board and it is 100% working, all correct voltages.  ;D

Then I connected the game PCB. At first it seemed dead, but after a bit of jiggling on the connectors, the leds came up and I was able to measure the correct voltages (5V DC was a nice 5.02V DC!). But it's obvious that I have to pay some attention to the connectorsc cleaning, maybe replacing. Let's see.

And then I wanted to power up the deflection board, model P314, this one:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070794_zpsj3jltznh.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070794_zpsj3jltznh.jpg.html)

I checked input voltage, which is 48V AC, and I disconnected the game board. So only power cable was connected. I switched on the cabinet, I heard the monitor come alive (yeah), but after 2 seconds, fuse F100 and F101 blew (again, they were also blown when I received the game). Hmm, something is wrong. I will have to read up on that, but maybe someone has a clue?  ???

Edit: possible cause could be transistor's cases shorting to ground.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 10, 2015, 02:01:11 PM
I took the monitor out of the Tempest (I want to pull the HV board and test it in the Black Widow cab to see if that solves the BW problem) and I noticed just a tiny, tiny bit of fosfor burn.  :o  Well, was to be expexted of course, I wonder if one will see a lot of it during gameplay.

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070834_zpsm9jchqbt.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070834_zpsm9jchqbt.jpg.html)

Does someone by any chance has a spare tube? (yeah, keep on dreaming).

The spinner knob isn't original, but fortunately I still had a spare Breakout CP, which has a nice, like new, spinner knob that will go on the Tempest CP. So, originality rules.  :D

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070891_zpsckxuf9es.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070891_zpsckxuf9es.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ajhippel on July 10, 2015, 02:11:25 PM
tyrems tempest tube has similiar burns - the good thing is: it can not be seen because of 2 reasons...

there is no light background like on an standard-monitor (e.g. the blue backgroundcolor in qbert)..

and the dark bezel hides a lot as well
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 10, 2015, 02:40:49 PM
 :D :D :D :D :D

Yeah, I already noticed that you can't see the spots when the bezel is placed before it. That's a good thing!  :spaceace:
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: blackie63 on July 10, 2015, 03:10:44 PM
my space duel has a tempest monitor in with those same burn marks ,no problem because the smoked glass hides it very well cant notice it at all  ;D
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 10, 2015, 03:53:12 PM
Good to hear,  guys.  ;D
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 16, 2015, 08:36:14 PM
Installed a LV2000 light on the deflection board today:

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070930_zpsfjtqpo87.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070930_zpsfjtqpo87.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070934_zps3bngqcg3.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070934_zps3bngqcg3.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070935_zpscoxylni9.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070935_zpscoxylni9.jpg.html)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070937_zps6btqr9s8.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070937_zps6btqr9s8.jpg.html)


 :) Easy peacy.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on July 16, 2015, 10:19:27 PM

Then I connected the game PCB. At first it seemed dead, but after a bit of jiggling on the connectors, the leds came up and I was able to measure the correct voltages (5V DC was a nice 5.02V DC!). But it's obvious that I have to pay some attention to the connectorsc cleaning, maybe replacing. Let's see.
Remember the words of Yoda: Do or do not, there is no try.....

Replace that edge connector. My opinion ? Every edge connector needs replacement, even if the game works fine....
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 17, 2015, 10:24:55 PM
Unfortunately the LV2000 upgrade didn't fix the issue with fuses F100 and F101, that constantly blow up. However, after some tests with connecting/disconnecting connectors J100, J600 and J700 to their headers, I found that whenever P700 got connected, both fuses blow up in smoke!

So, there was something wrong with P700. Solder joints are OK. Finally, this topic helped me to find the issue, I hope: http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=98480

It describes how to easy test the transistors on f.i. header P700. Bingo, test #5 and test #6 on PNP transistor 2N3792 failed.  :) Of course I did the same test on headers P100 and P600 and they seem to be OK.

I will have to get a replacement transistor and hopefully that will cure the problem.  ;D
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 18, 2015, 10:01:40 PM
Here is a good site with interesting info about WG 6100's: http://www.biltronix.com/arcade_electcomp_01.html

Somewhere it lists some replacement transistors for the original 2N2792 PNP (chassis)transistor: http://www.biltronix.com/transistor_subs_01.html#transistor_subs_2n3716_2n3792

Can some technician confirm that this one (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MJ21195G/MJ21195GOS-ND/919460) is a good replacement.

I'm asking because the transistor on the WG 6100 chassis has 5 pins (of which 3 have wires soldered to it), as the replacement seems to have only two pins.

Or could someone point me to a replacement at an European (preferably Dutch) shop?
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 19, 2015, 10:44:17 AM
R808 and R809 on the deflection board should be 680 Ohm with 5% tolerance and they measure in circuit 682 Ohm. I would say pretty OK. I prefer to measure all resistors in circuit, because desoldering and soldering legs of all resistors is a hell of a job. So, how important is it to desolder a lead before measuring resistors?
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 23, 2015, 01:15:13 PM
Here is a good site with interesting info about WG 6100's: http://www.biltronix.com/arcade_electcomp_01.html

Somewhere it lists some replacement transistors for the original 2N2792 PNP (chassis)transistor: http://www.biltronix.com/transistor_subs_01.html#transistor_subs_2n3716_2n3792

Can some technician confirm that this one (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MJ21195G/MJ21195GOS-ND/919460) is a good replacement.

I'm asking because the transistor on the WG 6100 chassis has 5 pins (of which 3 have wires soldered to it), as the replacement seems to have only two pins.

Or could someone point me to a replacement at an European (preferably Dutch) shop?

I can answer this question myself. Yes, it is a correct replacement. The original transistor also only has two pins, the other 3 pins are part of a kind of 'harnas' that will fit the new transistor also.  :)

I'm still fighting the monitor boards of this game and of Black Widow. Fortunately there is a lot of documentation about the WG 61000's, with all kind of repair tips. Hopefully the golden tip is between them, but so far I have little luck.

One good lesson learnt in the past is too always check soldering points etc, especially at connectors. Here is an example (before and after)

Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on July 23, 2015, 10:03:30 PM
I once started a thread about equivalents but alas it hasn't been awarded a sticky....

https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=5232.0

I'm not too keen on using equivalents though....often they have the legs "wrong" and thus they are not drop-in replacements !! Always check datasheets on both original and equivalent before installing them !!


Good soldering job only the one on the very bottom has a tiny bit too much solder....butttttttt I must add that sometimes on those lousy 6100 PCBs you can't get anything but a bulb soldering like that so don't worry about it too much (often the factory ones are like that....or much worse....)
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on July 23, 2015, 10:11:48 PM
By the way.....ALL transistors always have THREE connections: Base, Collector and Emitter.

However sometimes (like with TO-3 case transistors) the "body" is one of those connections.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 23, 2015, 10:22:22 PM
Thanks,  just wanted to post that link. This one is also useful :

https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=3685.0
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on July 23, 2015, 10:33:37 PM
You made a typo ....you mentioned 2N2792 while you meant 2N3792 :)

From the equivalent thread:


2N3792 (PNP) => 2N6609,MJ21195,MJ21193,MJ15016,MJ15004,2N5684,2N5884,MJ15023,MJ15025, MJ4502,MJ2955,2N5876

The bold ones I have actually seen working myself so might be worth to try and find these.

Try www.reichelt.nl too.

About measuring resistors in circuit: there is no general rule. It totally depends on the circuit it is in. If you meausre a value that is pretty close to spec, it's _probably_ OK.

F.i. If you put two 1000 ohms resistors in parallel and you measure across one of them, you will get a reading of 500 ohms. There will pretty often be resistors, but also other parts in parallel across resistors so in that case your measurements will be off and unreliable. The only way is to de solder one leg in that case.

So what you can do is: measure resistor in circuit, if value OK, pretty sure it is OK (but not 100%). if value is way off, desolder one pin and check again.

Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on July 23, 2015, 10:36:21 PM
http://www.reichelt.nl/MJ-2955-ISC/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=446&ARTICLE=12189&artnr=MJ+2955+ISC&SEARCH=Mj+2955

Pretty good price !

Note that I had to insert a space between MJ and 2955 to find it....so sometimes only search with the 4 numbers or try some other part of the name...
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on July 23, 2015, 10:42:56 PM
Should you order from Reichelt, I need some heatsinks....I'll look up exactly which one's tomorrow ;)
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on July 23, 2015, 11:40:00 PM
Thanks for all the info,  AndrĂ©  :)
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: synonym9 on August 02, 2015, 11:40:18 PM
I took the monitor out of the Tempest (I want to pull the HV board and test it in the Black Widow cab to see if that solves the BW problem) and I noticed just a tiny, tiny bit of fosfor burn.  :o  Well, was to be expexted of course, I wonder if one will see a lot of it during gameplay.

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f307/ckong65/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070834_zpsm9jchqbt.jpg) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/ckong65/media/Tempest%20-%20back%20to%20life/P1070834_zpsm9jchqbt.jpg.html)

Does someone by any chance has a spare tube? (yeah, keep on dreaming).


The Asteroids-tube I found (my two Asteroids was converted when I found them) also got one dark spot in the middle.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on August 03, 2015, 12:13:18 AM
Almost every Tempest monitor I've seen has burn-in.

Crappy 6100's....
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: synonym9 on August 05, 2015, 04:24:12 AM

Almost every arcade-monitor I have seen is slightly burned in....but what are dots in the centre???
My Asti-tube only got one...but also as strong as in the the Tempest-tube.

We will see how my Tempest-Tube looks like when it is arrived.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on August 05, 2015, 07:21:12 AM
Simple: those vector games got defective in some way causing the electron beam to stop moving. When there are no signals to deflect (bend) the beam all over the screen like it normally does in game/attract mode, ALL the energy of the beam hits one tiny spot in the center of the tube. This causes a very bright spot in the center and if it stays there for some time (BITD the machines of course usually were turned on from morning till late at night, some even 24h.and often barely attended) it will burn the phosphor at that spot, causing the dark dot.

Of course there were circuits designed to prevent this from happening (the spot killer) but this clearly didn't always work. In theory, when the vector monitor doesn't get any deflection signals from the game PCB, the beam will be dimmed to a safe level. But these circuits often failed. In fact, I repaired one 6100 which had completely the wrong type of transistors in the spot killer circuit from the factory (!) which surely made the spot killer none functional....they mixed up with transistors that were used on other sections of the deflection PCB, in other words, they grabbed transistors from the wrong source for these locations. Clearly not only production quality was lousy but also quality checking because you'd expect every monitor to be checked completely, including the spot killer function....

I am old enough to remember that when I was a kid spot burning also sometimes happened with then already old B/W TVs. What happened with those was that when the TV was turned off, naturally the deflection stopped but sometimes the beam still continued (I guess because of caps getting bad...not sure really) while this should be dimmed too at that moment.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on August 05, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
Nice quote from Jed Margolin's website www.jmargolin.com :

The Amplifone Deflection Amplifiers also contain a circuit that looks at activity on the X and Y inputs. If  it doesn't find what it feels is an appropriate amount of activity it turns off the Beam to prevent it from burning up the screen phosphor. This is the infamous Spot Killer.

Even with the Spot Killer, screen phosphor burn was a common occurrence during software development. One time I saw a runaway Vector Generator burn off the phosphor in the middle of the screen, then burn completely through the shadow mask, and start to burn through the glass
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: synonym9 on August 05, 2015, 03:30:52 PM

Ahhh...I see, so not necesserely the deflection unit needed to fail, also when a game-PCB did not work correctly the beam stood in the center?
From my experience the the color rasters did not do that. I have one machine which got a neckglow but is dead otherwise. The guys here in DLF told me that this is logic if the PCB does not work, you only got snowing on the screen when the monitor got a tuner, still it does not make that spot in the middle...so is it a vector-monitor-phenomenom?
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: Etienne MacGyver on August 05, 2015, 03:45:27 PM
yes indeed that is.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on August 05, 2015, 05:39:02 PM
Yes except for what I described about ancient B/W TV's......

The reason why is that a TV has internal circuitry that will move the beam "automatically" all the time, line by line from top to bottom and then back to the first position again, wether there is a signal or not. When there is no signal (snow) this still happens so no burn in.

http://youtu.be/aBjBG9Sen0w (Posted this one before)

This is also why, in essence, the electronics from a vector monitor are much more basic. There is no need to create the signals that make the beam move, the game PCB does that.

Of course the above video and explanation is only true for old fashioned analogue TV which has been gone from the air for years in our country already, Digital works completely differently....


Oh one thing more: deflection failures do still happen on CRT TVs and raster monitors but it's very very very very unlikely that both X AND Y deflection fails at the same time, so what you get then is a horizontal or vertical bright line...
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: Etienne MacGyver on August 05, 2015, 06:20:03 PM
and that is the famous vertical collapse (or horizontal, wich is much more rare to happen)

(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/minipong/147.jpg) (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=3613.135)

this is the vertical collapse i experienced with my minipong...  :twisted:
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: synonym9 on August 05, 2015, 06:24:18 PM
and that is the famous vertical collapse (or horizontal, wich is much more rare to happen)

(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/minipong/147.jpg) (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=3613.135)

this is the vertical collapse i experienced with my minipong...  :twisted:

Although its not a good sign it looks beautiful  :)
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: ckong on August 06, 2015, 08:28:27 AM
don't clutter up this topic so much, please.
Title: Re: Tempest - bring it back to life
Post by: level42 on August 06, 2015, 09:43:04 AM
(http://www.jhocy.com/images/uploads/eba79503f634f3476a659617d8611182.gif)


I thought it was pretty on topic still ??

Well bring on the ON-topic stuff then buddy !!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D