Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Arcade Lifestyle => Topic started by: Superully on June 15, 2011, 06:57:16 PM
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before this life-changing question can be answered, perhaps i should first concentrate on restoring the cabinet to its former glory, because this ugly conversion-from-hell :twisted: doesn't look like a frogger cabinet at all :shock: :arrow:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/5832840322_7c78f93829_b_d.jpg)
however, before things get rolling, there's one crucial decision to be made! here's how we remember frogger from back in the days (and how we see it most often) :arrow:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3413/5836135533_3ee7a23b3e_b_d.jpg)
honestly, i think the woodgrain vinyl is a total killer and makes the cabinet look horrible. someone on the american forum has painted his cabinet black, but i think it looks too dark and depressing!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5182/5836129355_44f015cb91_b_d.jpg)
someone has created a "computer version" of the cabinet in blue ...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5025/5836129581_489ab1089c_b_d.jpg)
... and in green!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/5836129463_160c0420e1_b_d.jpg)
that green version also exists "in real life" with blue t-molding, green speaker & bezel, but i think that's too much!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/5836129249_bc4520fecd_b_d.jpg)
i personally think that both the blue and the green version look pretty cool, but i'm not totally convinced yet. what do you think of keeping it in line with the other two sega / gremlin cabs i have which are both white :arrow:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2640/5836677502_b1e720e292_z_d.jpg) (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5266/5836129631_5cac15132c_z_d.jpg)
wouldn't the white in combination with the black sideart and the green / blue of the marquee make the colors shine? can someone make a white computer version to get a first impression?
what do you think? your opinion is important to me, so bring it on - help me make this world a better place bring this frogger back to life! :-*
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That cab needs a lot of restoration :(
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Quick hack...
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Or one of these... :)
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I prefer this one though... ;D
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I prefer this one though... ;D
Yeah,.. I vote for that one too !
:D
Seriously: WOODGRAIN !!!
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I'd go for this model.
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knowing how anal you're , i'd go for the woodgrain. Just like your congo bongo cab.
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That cab needs a lot of restoration :(
you haven't seen the inside yet ... :o :o :o
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Seriously: WOODGRAIN !!!
woodgrain is not an option, it simply sucks!!! frogger deserves something better than that!
thx a lot for the quick hack(s), i personally like the white a lot!
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It depends, if you want to do a restoration, then woodgrain is the only option. It´s original.
If you want a pimped cab, then you should give it a color, every color is fine then, I guess.
I would go for the original looks of the cab though, it´s how it stood in the arcades.
The question is: do we go for originality or not.
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The question is: do we go for originality or not.
as i've said before: sometimes you have to do some adjustments to improve upon the original and in this case i want to because i can't stand the woodgrain at all. as soon as you restore a cabinet and put in replacement parts (as you can see i have no other choice on this cabinet), it loses the "original factor". therefore i might as well go with another color! but i hear you guys, you're screaming "woodgrain" - damn! :P
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The question is: do we go for originality or not.
as i've said before: sometimes you have to do some adjustments to improve upon the original
Then you are by definition not restoring.
However, I see your point, the original look of Frogger is not really pretty, but it was produced like this. I guess it´s a personal choice then. I would and will always opt for originality, if possible.
On the other side, if your cab has never been a Frogger, then it doesn´t matter, then you could go for he ´improved´ look.
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The best match is the yellow one if you compare all the colours on the sideart and marquee. ;D ;D ;D
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How bout woodgrain but with sidearts ?
that covers alot of the woodgrain ;D
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If I had to go for a colour, I'd make it blue, a darker one than in the marquee, like the buttons on the front.
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thx a lot for your input, guys, a lot of controversy going on over the color choice and the restauration / reimagination of this classic. i haven't decided yet which route to go, perhaps i should put the decision into a woman's hand ... 8)
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I'm not afraid of (small) improvements to correct manufacturers "mistakes" like the ugly brown tinted SW canopy plexi's or the Nintendo micro-switch buttons, but this is a pretty big step.
I've learned to appreciate the woodgrain when I still had my ( :'( ) MC cabaret. You know, it fits so well to the timeframe and the US taste (in those days). Whenever (if ever) I watch an old 80's series like Knight Rider or the A-team, the offices are fool of (fake) wood"grain" offices and furniture. Is it ugly ? Yep. But it _is_ a sign of the times (o-yeah----da-da-da-dumm....)
(But so were the bronze tinted SW cockpit canoy plexi's, and YET I replaced them with colorless one's....)
However Ully, remember there is 1 big advantage with keeping the Frogger woodgrain: you can put it tightly between two other cabs without loosing anything ;)
I do think the Atari Irish cabs had a woodgrain that was _just_ a little less ugly than this though....
Whatever you do, it's your machine, you have to enjoy it. And whatever you do, we all know it will be done in a tasteful way !!
See ya !
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I've learned to appreciate the woodgrain when I still had my ( :'( ) MC cabaret. You know, it fits so well to the timeframe and the US taste (in those days). Whenever (if ever) I watch an old 80's series like Knight Rider or the A-team, the offices are fool of (fake) wood"grain" offices and furniture. Is it ugly ?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Uo1dXyGtYIk/TdrHnT2nCSI/AAAAAAAACJA/DEnJ-KmzDtk/s1600/Fool.jpg)
;D ;D
On another note.. +1 for woodgrain.
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Haha, Full + A-team = Fool ! :D
My spelling checker did it ! ;D ;D
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Whatever you do, it's your machine, you have to enjoy it. And whatever you do, we all know it will be done in a tasteful way !!
thx a lot, andré, this is giving me the push i needed to go with pink :D
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+1 for Etienne's suggestion.
Save the woodgrain at all costs, it's so typical! ;) ;)
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/~chrischris/arcade/froggg.jpg)
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guess what rich is currently printing for me? :P
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Woodgrain?
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Woodgrain?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCfyOXJf3ZM&feature=related
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guess what rich is currently printing for me? :P
A giant roll of adhesive tire track so you can customise the cab any way you like.
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the side arts ?
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(http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos_www/2010/EbayDE_Frogger_NSM_2.jpg)
but then in the US cab shape.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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A giant roll of adhesive tire track so you can customise the cab any way you like.
;D nice idea! i can then run the tire track not just over the whole cabinet, but also through my apartment and down the stairs (to school). it would probably look pretty cool though if that tire track not only continued down the front of the cabinet, but in front of the cabinet as well, as if something was driving up towards the cabinet, but didn't stop there and ran over the game instead ... 8)
where are the photoshop experts? give us an example of a cab on location with the tire tracks leading up to it! :spaceace:
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before the restoration can begin, i need to make an inventory of what's there and what's missing! so let's inspect the cab a little bit closer ...
once again, the beast in its full glory! :twisted:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5108/5888529616_948d85d231_b_d.jpg)
the control panel! anyone wanna have it - it's free :P
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5184/5888532470_c4d1cd7596_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5313/5888534244_30a733aa7d_b_d.jpg)
have you ever seen a security bar like that? :o
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5072/5888530418_126e7c1108_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5038/5887969333_58d6aa3029_b_d.jpg)
time for a good smoke! 8)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6026/5888534612_b5e4625de7_b_d.jpg)
i was told (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2524.0) this is a bally / midway coin door - definitely not an original sega / gremlin coin door, which means the front panel has been hacked and will need to be replaced!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5031/5888529190_a25b83ab55_b_d.jpg)
a look behind the coin door: strange pieces of wood have been fitted in - and look at that wiring! nothing original in there at all ... :'(
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/5887964465_ac5d5928a3_b_d.jpg)
we're looking upwards now at the speaker / light fixture / marquee area. first thing i notice: the speaker grill has been mounted on the wrong side of the board, it belongs on the outside :P
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5276/5888533294_5254879ba7_b_d.jpg)
a first (careful) look behind the strange plexi marquee from behind. oh my god, what is that mess? :o :o :o
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6060/5887965187_77ea9afa65_b_d.jpg)
the speaker grill is covered up by a piece of cardboard :D
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5115/5887968013_bb41fd7bba_b_d.jpg)
cardboard removed! unfortunately, the speaker grill has a hole in the middle and (of course) the light fixture is not original anymore
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5160/5887970769_fe4fd9298d_b_d.jpg)
the same goes for the speaker (look how it is mounted to the side of the cabinet)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5024/5887970129_6e913f70d5_b_d.jpg)
the sad news: no original parts in there, everything needs to be replaced!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6060/5887970419_740d5f4bb4_b_d.jpg)
another "do-it-yourself" example around the monitor: selfmade monitor bezel made of cardboard and painted black
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5887969599_ac1313a253_b_d.jpg)
cardboard removed (and immediately tossed in the trash). the monitor has some burn-in, can anyone read what it says? i'm not sure, but i think i can make out the words "battle of ..."
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5061/5888535388_d74d1cf89e_b_d.jpg)
investigation continues from behind: the monitor with a rusted metal "surround"
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5888531944_03f97bac06_b_d.jpg)
i'm pretty sure this is an electrohome go7 cbo chassis
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6039/5887966001_6fd9a6e79e_b_d.jpg)
finally, the bottom of the cab. if you're not familiar with sega / gremlin cabs, let me tell you that normally there is a piece of wood on which the power assembly rests. this piece of wood has been torn out (remnants of it can still be seen upon closer inspection) and the power supply has been madly screwed to the ground. and then there's that wiring ... :o
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5192/5888531220_ac2406e6aa_b_d.jpg)
short summary: basically the only thing i can use are the cab (of course) and the monitor (which is hopefully working, but i wouldn't count on it). everything else needs to be replaced! oh my god, this is going to be a lengthy and expensive restoration, i could as well have bought one of paul's frogger cabs :D
what have i gotten myself into?
i need a new masterplan ...
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lets just put it this way;
you got a challenge ;D
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what have i gotten myself into? i need a new masterplan ...
and i got one - time to execute it! ;D
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5896434787_fae9a4b2d2_b_d.jpg)
i'm heading out ...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5273/5896434915_131fa5dec3_b_d.jpg)
destination set!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5069/5897004090_422126d881_b_d.jpg)
just like pablo picasso had his blue period, here's mine! :arrow:
picture one: arrival
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5896435433_f4634bcc77_b_d.jpg)
picture two: entry
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5312/5896436101_9d54d5212a_b_d.jpg)
picture three: departure
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5192/5897002680_0bc72652b5_b_d.jpg)
the delivery of various boxes has been confirmed!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5152/5897002444_2178887ce7_b_d.jpg)
box 1 - small but quite heavy
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5309/5897004396_5b334b7c69_b_d.jpg)
nicely labeled! let's find out what's (really) inside :arrow:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5038/5896433781_c288743270_b_d.jpg)
oh my god, someone has been transporting live animals :P
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5071/5896434563_9a357c4e8e_b_d.jpg)
the claws are out, you won't be getting those parts! :twisted:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5272/5896436297_573660de24_b_d.jpg)
hah, bring on some food and out comes the cat! :) inside: light fixture, coin box, speaker ...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5064/5897006258_39a1b96920_b_d.jpg)
... and speaker grill (without any holes)!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5308/5896436739_a41b284bf3_b_d.jpg)
box 2 - this one is huuuge! as you can see, the cat has returned
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5072/5896438339_48afe00771_b_d.jpg)
it's labeled as being heavy, but in fact it's pretty light, despite its size!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6010/5897005486_ba9468e448_b_d.jpg)
first glance inside: apart from tons of protective material, there's the black plastic bezel which goes around the plexi bezel (also included! my cabinet had a not-original glass bezel of the wrong size)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6002/5896437501_c6b3fbb52b_b_d.jpg)
also inside, an inventory of items i ordered from arcadeshop (note that i also ordered stuff for my upcoming donkey kong junior restoration)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5896437277_d3f4ff220c_b_d.jpg)
let's inspect some of those items a little bit closer: plastic marquee and control panel overlay
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5315/5896438137_b694279bc4_b_d.jpg)
cardboard monitor bezel
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6056/5896435231_a58914b36b_b_d.jpg)
box 3 - this one really IS heavy!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5069/5896432855_1cf5596401_b_d.jpg)
nice detail on the box added by the seller
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6001/5897001016_2e9661b8be_b_d.jpg)
this is what it looks inside: original frogger manual ...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5073/5897000268_e190ddde98_b_d.jpg)
... plus a complete frogger wiring harness - modified for a switching power supply!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5315/5897000604_55a7ebef03_b_d.jpg)
finally, the heart of it all: frogger circuit board
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5278/5896433293_193d99e17f_b_d.jpg)
i love details like that :-*
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5038/5897001914_70ee15c2b7_b_d.jpg)
once again, this would not have been possible (or at least damn expensive) without the generous help of my "american delivery guy" who prefers to remain anonymous at this point in time! you rock, i owe you another beer the next time ... ;) 8)
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A Master Plan Master Class indeed!!!!!
:spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
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You have connections everywhere ! :D
Looking good, now you can get this monster back to frogger !
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I think none of us have started to do this work from this base, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel by now. ;D
Your masterplans are brilliant! ;)
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this is really a "Rise from your grave" project.
Everyone would give up or burn that cab,... not ully ;)
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the restoration continues ... with the cab disassembly!
in order to start the real restoration work, i have to disassemble the cabinet first, because some ugly modifications from hell have been done to this game! :evil:
let's start by removing everything - beginning with the wiring (if you can call it like that)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6011/5987470253_239de098d6_b_d.jpg)
i'm keeping parts like the potentiometer - wave goodbye to the rest 8)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6130/5987468097_cb39ee5b5f_b_d.jpg)
here's what was lying around on the bottom of the cab, the previous owners must have dropped everything they couldn't use anymore inside instead of tossing it away!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6124/5987469603_d4846ce665_b_d.jpg)
i also found some nice pieces inside, i especially love that key! :-*
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6027/5988031988_d220ba6200_b_d.jpg)
as i've said before, the front panel has been hacked to make a different (non-original) coin door fit
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6006/5988030706_15c01fa2f1_b_d.jpg)
looking closely, you can clearly see where the original coin door was and where the additional cuts have been made
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6021/5987470945_5fa4a96aa0_b_d.jpg)
in order to cover up the old cut-out for the coin door, they inserted a small piece of wood
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6014/5987470517_ce97007332_b_d.jpg)
as you can imagine, the original front panel can not be salvaged - which means i will have to cut a new one. for that, i have to remove the old one first, starting with some screws!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6020/5987469845_30cc2716cf_b_d.jpg)
however, i soon realize that i can't remove all the screws (and therefore the front panel) without getting the handmade wooden coin box out first. isn't it a thing of beauty? :P
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6006/5987469225_f7b1ef359c_b_d.jpg)
i'm using brute force to hammer it out! :twisted:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6024/5987471895_62ffe1a6b6_b_d.jpg)
the two panels which held the coin box in place - obviously another cabinet was used to create those. i know which game they came from, do you?
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6028/5987474117_6894d5056c_b_d.jpg)
coin box removed - what a piece of crap!!!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6128/5988035954_e87d585af4_b_d.jpg)
i still don't understand the function of those two metal pieces ???
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6028/5988035508_16478369c6_b_d.jpg)
with the coin box removed, i can now also reach the lower screws. as you can see, the front panel is starting to come off ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6122/5988034120_427b392542_b_d.jpg)
with the crappy parts removed, this is beginning to look more original!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6011/5987472205_6ac6befe17_b_d.jpg)
here's another pop quiz for the experts: on the right side someone drilled a huuuge hole in the cabinet and screwed in a round piece of plastic. this is the second time i've seen something like that, but the function of it still eludes me! does anyone have an answer?
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6009/5987471517_cfa1c40328_b_d.jpg)
view from the inside
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6136/5987473579_5943747faf_b_d.jpg)
and removed! as you can see, i'm left with a giant hole in the cabinet's side! >:(
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6124/5987476023_c5c0243b3d_b_d.jpg)
of course, HE is also around "helping out"
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6023/5988039498_efdbe474d2_b_d.jpg)
the back panel is also worn, screwed in (which it isn't supposed to be, which means someone had taken it off prior) and dirty. there's only one solution: removal!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6126/5987475069_93f9380b7b_b_d.jpg)
and guess what i find inside :D (note the giant hole from that brown "thingy" on the right)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6149/5987474657_8f1869570f_b_d.jpg)
cat carefully removed 8)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6122/5987477019_bf5f8dfef5_b_d.jpg)
i love details like this ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6014/5988039202_d731102318_b_d.jpg)
... and that! (note the famous troubleshooting sticker (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2600.0) which will be replaced by a new complete one)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6028/5988038216_3aef82f85c_b_d.jpg)
four heavy-duty wheels have been screwed ("rammed" would be the better word) into the bottom of the cabinet to make moving it around easier
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6132/5988040510_18644d51bd_b_d.jpg)
but as you can see, the cabinet's bottom suffered some serious damage from that action (splintered distorted wood)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6137/5987477339_e261b34337_b_d.jpg)
here's another example! looks like someone tried to do some damage control by filling spaces up with glue :shock:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6124/5988040870_d50eefd83d_b_d.jpg)
i had to disassemble the cabinet even further to get all the wheel screws out, but eventually i succeeded! :twisted:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6145/5987468543_16310102b6_b_d.jpg)
and here's where i stand right now (real time): cabinet partially disassembled, damaged parts waiting to be restored / reconstructed!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6011/5988269722_1439e01e10_b_d.jpg)
to be continued ...
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So much work to do, i would be scarred to touch this Frankenstein cab, but i admire your courage! ;D ;)
The before and after pictures is going to show a huge contrast in a few weeks/months, cant wait to see the results.
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That's quite a restoration... :)
Re: the hole in the side. Two ideas...
1) Lock bar to bolt against a wall so it doesn't get rolled away.
2) Side access for the power cable.
Paul.
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(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6028/5987474117_6894d5056c_b_d.jpg)
Sniff......boo-hoo.....poor Battlezone....what a way to end for a tough tank game....supporting a frog !!
;D ;D ;D ;D
Man...this is a serious hard core resto.....but we all know you can do it Ully.
Now will you please answer my question int the Eurocade thread ? Pleaaaaaaase ??
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(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6028/5987474117_6894d5056c_b_d.jpg)
Sniff......boo-hoo.....poor Battlezone....what a way to end for a tough tank game....supporting a frog !!
;D ;D ;D ;D
Man...this is a serious hard core resto.....but we all know you can do it Ully.
Now will you please answer my question int the Eurocade thread ? Pleaaaaaaase ??
He is quite the silent type atm!
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Now will you please answer my question int the Eurocade thread ? Pleaaaaaaase ??
which question? i don't follow the thread on a regular basis and therefore have probably missed it ... :-[
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He is quite the silent type atm!
well, he's still uncertain at the moment! just talked about it with C yesterday, atm it looks like she's onboard, but she's waiting for one final date from school to confirm.
@all except muerto: this is eurocade talk, just ignore us ;)
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Now will you please answer my question int the Eurocade thread ? Pleaaaaaaase ??
which question? i don't follow the thread on a regular basis and therefore have probably missed it ... :-[
WHAT ?!?!? Pffff.....go read up then, maybe there's some interesting updates there...
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WHAT ?!?!? Pffff.....go read up then, maybe there's some interesting updates there...
sorry andré, should have said this a little bit clearer. of course i'm following your updates on THE EVENT, i'm just not reading every single comment someone makes. therefore chances are i might miss something important, but all in all i know i think i have a pretty good picture of what is going to happen in luxembourg in november ... ;)
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Thats one tough job you are starting on, but as said before;
looking at your past regarding capabilities and experience with resto's this will turn out fine :spaceace:
i am already looking forward to this pic : ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/ullytreatment.jpg)
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cabinet and screwed in a round piece of plastic. this is the second time i've seen something like that, but the function of it still eludes me! does anyone have an answer?
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6009/5987471517_cfa1c40328_b_d.jpg)
Maybe the cab once had a key safe installed. This is basically a closed metal tube which can be locked on one side. It is used to store all the keys from one location so the operator doesn't have to carry xx keys with him.
I have seen such a thing somewhere a long time ago, but I can't remember where (in a catalog maybe?).
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I have recieved 2 or 3 machines from Germany with that hole in the side!!
Usually a round hole with to marks on either side like this: -O-
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I have recieved 2 or 3 machines from Germany with that hole in the side!!
Usually a round hole with to marks on either side like this: -O-
strange! must have been a german thing to do :P
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Maybe they tried to hang the machines on the wall, the germans are crazy about hanging machines on the wall ;)
My Joust has the same thing but its on the kick plate. Guess where that Joust came from ?
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Maybe they tried to hang the machines on the wall, the germans are crazy about hanging machines on the wall ;)
My Joust has the same thing but its on the kick plate. Guess where that Joust came from ?
germany ??? ;D
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I meant something like that:
(http://www.peisser-meyer.de/daten/Melchert/Melchert%20Schl%FCsseltresor.jpg)
I've seen them (in a magazine or something) advertised especially for arcade cabs.
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i've been really working on this cabinet for two weeks now and i've got the feeling i've accomplished nothing. people who haven't seen the cabinet before would never guess any work has been done to the game at all, but believe me: i've already spent countless hours to get the cab back into shape! here's just a few of the things i have done ...
starting with something simple: dust removal
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6078/6060173768_ea7a1efe6a_b_d.jpg)
some cleaning first ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6072/6059624225_07ba684dae_b_d.jpg)
... and a couple of fresh paint layers later: that's how i like it! 8)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6074/6059624943_5e0cb5ed1e_b_d.jpg)
the cab's bottom has suffered severly by the previously installed coasters
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6203/6060174434_1f10907084_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6188/6059625659_8744b58e9b_b_d.jpg)
of course i could simply cut a new piece of wood, but i'd like to keep as many original parts as possible, so out comes the wood filler
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6071/6059625943_9fef34e52e_b_d.jpg)
a lot of smaller holes to be filled as well ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6074/6059626485_2d34b0a3c3_b_d.jpg)
... and one bigger one (do you remember). for that, i'm cutting out a "filler" first
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6089/6060176002_18e9f5d60e_b_d.jpg)
hammering it in :twisted:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6090/6060176736_6e8861b402_b_d.jpg)
bondo on top of it
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6075/6060176342_92b3134f13_b_d.jpg)
after sanding it down, the hole has disappeared
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6186/6059628187_f54f7db22d_b_d.jpg)
i also need to cut "an entire army" of new rails because most of them had been destroyed / splintered / damaged
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6195/6060177712_01d7914cb8_b_d.jpg)
starting to look much cleaner already
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6069/6059629119_176dba4b6d_b_d.jpg)
up next, the lower marquee board (which is supposed to hold the speaker, the light fixture and the marquee). as you can see, it had been badly mistreated! :shock:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6086/6060177984_158a671123_b_d.jpg)
the slot where the marquee normally slides in is gone because an entire piece of wood is missing
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6074/6060166644_cbf61e6281_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6076/6060167004_7ce004c8b7_b_d.jpg)
fortunately, i have another sega / gremlin cab which i can use as a template (and believe me, i really need it): getting the exact measures here :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6066/6060167444_95d06cf58d_b_d.jpg)
i'm glueing on a new wooden panel
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6195/6060167836_0e27fc2c1e_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6082/6060168406_c2964d2024_b_d.jpg)
fantastic results of this operation :-*
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6181/6060168110_3954005d32_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6203/6060168626_544a370f68_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6077/6059619755_a9cbb2f4f2_b_d.jpg)
i'm also replacing the old dirty misshapen grills ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6065/6059620215_63fc9f5bfd_b_d.jpg)
... by freshly-painted new ones!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6080/6059620663_a1ed6291fb_b_d.jpg)
speaking of which: fresh paint has never done any harm
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6059621071_eae6967d64_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6059621473_d558416c5f_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6066/6059621803_89ee2335be_b_d.jpg)
installing the clean pieces back onto the cabinet (notice the new leg levelers i also put on)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6188/6059622197_0571f9a83e_b_d.jpg)
as i've said before, it looks as if nothing (or at least not a lot) has been done to the cabinet, but after installing / fixing / cleaning many parts, the cab is now solid and ready for the next step!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6060171748_664d54aa90_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6076/6059623001_40fc9f1e9a_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6090/6059623349_c62770831d_b_d.jpg)
in case you forgot which cabinet this is going to be, here's a short reminder (with an unfinished control panel)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6193/6059623711_63496f3a89_b_d.jpg)
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It may look like you did not do anything to the cab, but i think you did alot ! :o
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worked on the monitor panel next! the original one had been replaced by a self-made version with a huge hole in the middle which allows for both vertical and horizontal monitor orientation. not a bad idea, because it makes rotating the monitor easy, but there is a catch: the sides are so thin than it might eventually break under the monitor's weight and as you can see on the following picture IT DID! someone screwed a piece of metal underneath as a temporary fix ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6196/6062128481_5a3815ef1d_b_d.jpg)
when i pulled out the board it immediately broke into three pieces :o
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6082/6062675592_3e5708b7fa_b_d.jpg)
first order of business: glueing the individual pieces back together again!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6183/6062674900_78889001f2_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6193/6062126857_7d689f450c_b_d.jpg)
after spray-painting the board i decided to build a metal frame around the wood to withstand the weight of the monitor f-o-r-e-v-e-r. here you can see me drilling holes through the frame in order to fix it to the cabinet later!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6063/6062676510_4490f4c65c_b_d.jpg)
i also "extended" those holes in order to "sink the screws" completely. looking slick, doesn't it? 8)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6081/6062127813_e7c4e4013d_b_d.jpg)
the completed frame - should work like a charm, i'm thrilled! it will have to wait outside of the cabinet though until all the interior restoration stuff has been completed ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6184/6062675986_aa758d4497_b_d.jpg)
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time to finish the exterior, in this case: the sides! here's how the cab looks after filling all the holes and repairing the dings around the edges :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6071/6152700435_8a56ea2017_b_d.jpg)
however, i'm not quite done yet with filling, because if i want to apply vinyl so that it looks nice without any "elevations"i must have a completely flat surface. and with "completely flat" i mean COMPETELY FLAT!!! it's much more difficult to achieve this when the cab is made of particle wood instead of plywood, that's why i have to make sure every single hole on the sides is filled up. here's what i need to do the trick :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6173/6153242136_615c92992d_b_d.jpg)
a very thin application of fine wood putty over the entire side of the cab
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6083/6152699719_f150f7c378_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6063/6153244196_6748816d38_b_d.jpg)
after giving it enough time to dry, i'm carefully sanding it off again - only to leave very tiny pieces of wood filler back between the individual particles
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6168/6152699297_72a583373f_b_d.jpg)
can you see those spots of white? the surface is now smooth / soft as a feather, it almost feels like glass. ready for the next step - VINYL!!!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6167/6153241204_71a558b751_b_d.jpg)
for that, i'm driving to a nearby home depot (well, nearby means about 45 minutes one way), because they have the finest selection of vinyl there: tons of colors and structures to choose from!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6087/6153241532_d557f3d371_b_d.jpg)
here's only a part of it :o
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6205/6152698735_93afc4632e_b_d.jpg)
they are especially well-stocked when it comes to woodgrain stuff
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6090/6152700165_c82e70c858_b_d.jpg)
but believe it or not (and you'd better believe it), i've decided against using woodgrain although it was used originally! why? well, you'll have to wait a little while longer, but there are two very good reasons (at least for me) that made me choose differently. one will be revealed soon, the other (bigger) one later (once i get a crucial missing piece from the usa). for now, here's my color of choice :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6086/6153243986_d8f884f28b_b_d.jpg)
to be continued ...
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..... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
that MUST be a joke.....yes I'm sure that it is a joke.....
...tell me it is a joke....!!!
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for now, here's my color of choice :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6086/6153243986_d8f884f28b_b_d.jpg)
Is this going to be a custom Ms. Frogger cab? ;D
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There was actually a version in pink earlier in the topic, and we all know that Ully hates Woodgrain...
maybe he likes pink...
Nahh that need to be a joke, c'mon!! pink, are you serious ???
Dont tease us more ully, say what it will be ! :twisted:
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doesn't it just look lovely?
(https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2725.0;attach=641;image)
:-* :-* :-*
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Damn, sometimes I actually DON'T like the brilliant 27" screen in my iMac.....it almost got a burst in the glass when I looked at that pic....
Haha, you're not fooling me Ully. No way you're going to do that. And if you are.....I know where you live.....and I'll be quicker up those three stairs then you can EVER imagine..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ully is a funny guy ... I like his humor although it scares me sometimes ;)
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;D nice to see that i caused some controversy, but i'm afraid this isn't over yet ...
i've been struggling hard between using woodgrain or not, in fact i was almost ready to use it, but then - out of the blue - a picture popped up here that some dutch dude (can't remember his name, stage38 or something similar) took while visiting funspot this year and it was this picture that convinced me not to use woodgrain but to go with a different color (some people don't even call it a color). here's the famous picture i've been talking about :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6161/6153241320_9eba9b92e7_b_d.jpg)
a fantastic sega / gremlin row with an odd man out (aka the black sheep of the family) in between. this picture almost made me cry - seriously :'( how could they put f-ugly woodgrain on the frogger cabinet when they made the rest of them white? this just looks wrong! as i've said before, there is another reason (apart from the fact that i have two other white sega / gremlin cabs) why i decided against woodgrain (which is hopefully going to look as great as i'm expecting it to do), but this will be revealed later. for now, here's the color that i really picked :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/6153246484_b653b54d16_b_d.jpg)
having done this a couple of times already, charlotte and i are experts by now when it comes to applying vinyl / sideart
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6072/6153246998_a642f469c6_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6178/6153246636_0a789516b8_b_d.jpg)
roll over, beethoven
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6174/6152703599_45d5c3535d_b_d.jpg)
i'm using the same technique that i used on my pac-mania restoration (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=1513.0) for the first time: overlapping the vinyl in order to push it down with the t-molding later on (imho the only reasonable way to do it)!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6181/6153245658_0ec3398018_b_d.jpg)
my study is a total mess: parts, tools and trash everywhere!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6195/6153244744_61d248abd3_b_d.jpg)
up next: the sideart! shocker: when i lay one of the graphics on the cabinet for alignment, i realize that there is a huuuge bend in the art. because i have had the art in my possession for quite a while now, i won't be able to exchange it for a new one (a replacement), so i'll have to do my very best to minimize the damage!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6081/6153245286_9280d1cf1a_b_d.jpg)
let's start applying the art with "the usual suspects"
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6175/6152701825_3f5bdd8238_b_d.jpg)
here's a look at that bend from behind. i wonder whether i'll be able to remove it or not ... ???
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6153245828_fc853cd3b6_b_d.jpg)
i'm using a hi-quality 3m squeegee to push it down as hard / flat as possible
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6072/6152701237_09c8fd5580_b_d.jpg)
only time will tell (when i remove the protective layer) if / how the damage will be visible - for now it doesn't look too bad!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/6153246120_5f0d556872_b_d.jpg)
here's the sideart firmly applied to the cabinet's side :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6086/6152702279_75a4b6f539_b_d.jpg)
one final word regarding the white cabinet: it has been sitting like this in my study for almost a week now and i totally l-o-v-e :-* the way this turned out and the way it looks - imho so much better than woodgrain. i don't care about it not being original, it's a fantastic sight and that's what matters. i won't be showing you photos of the whole cabinet for now, i'll save those for the money shots when the restoration is done 8)
your turn now, bash me!!! :P
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Allright, allright, I have to admit that the white vinyl looks cool, not original but really cool...
Very nice customisation, here Ully.
...and of course, as always OUTSTANDING kraftskills, so well documented. Thanks for that!
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I have no problems with woodgrain, but this cab looks much better in white. :D
Sometimes we have to correct designers mistakes, that they did in the past. ;D ;D ;D
Great job Ully, the pink would be better tho. ;D
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I think the pink vinyl was for his Kirby costume.
Next Eurocade will be a cosplay, haven't you heard?
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That does look indeed good !
I personally would use woodgrain with sidearts, but hey this turned out really great !
i hope the dent is not visible in the end..
thanks for the tutorial, i think Andre also needs that for his mrs pac, and i need it later for my CK.
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Yup, already planned stealing Ully's method....
So....because of that pic I am now part guilty of that Frogger becoming white.....ahhh, well I am going to be honest here: I hate woodgrain as much as anyone and I think you chose very wisely for the white. Good alternative.
Although.....looking at that picture again.......and knowing how much you want a Pong............you can't do that to a Pong of course ;D
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I think the pink vinyl was for his Kirby costume.
Next Eurocade will be a cosplay, haven't you heard?
LOL but Kirby is NOT allowed. He's not an arcade character !
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Yup, already planned stealing Ully's method....
if you need any more info, just ask. the key is not to use too much heat (my hot air gun is set on 150 degrees). as always, take your time and it'll work out fine, do a test run first with some spare vinyl!
So....because of that pic I am now part guilty of that Frogger becoming white.....ahhh, well I am going to be honest here: I hate woodgrain as much as anyone and I think you chose very wisely for the white. Good alternative.
glad that you guys like my choice, because although i'm totally convinced by the white vinyl it's always nice to be supported!
Although.....looking at that picture again.......and knowing how much you want a Pong............you can't do that to a Pong of course ;D
believe me, i would NEVER EVER use anything else but woodgrain on a Pong, that cabinet is an icon and deserves to stay the way it was made!
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It sure looks nice, but sorry to say, a Frogger in my eyes is WOODGRAIN!
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It sure looks nice, but sorry to say, a Frogger in my eyes is WOODGRAIN!
wait and see, michael, just wait and see! 8)
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let me guess, the front will be woodgrain ::)
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let me guess, the front will be woodgrain ::)
damn it, etienne, didn't i tell you not to spoil it? ;)
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:oops: my bad ;D
It was just a wild guess :P
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It's really looking better with white vynil than with that old-fashionned woodgrain, you did the right choice Ully ;)
By the way, next time that you have a bending problem with a vynil, think about using some drops of liquid soap in a bottle of water, spray it on the surface where you want to put your sticker, and use your squeegee to remove water and soap as long as you apply the sticker. The result will be totally perfect, I used to apply this method a lot of times before, and I never get any problem with it. :)
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By the way, next time that you have a bending problem with a vynil, think about using some drops of liquid soap in a bottle of water, spray it on the surface where you want to put your sticker, and use your squeegee to remove water and soap as long as you apply the sticker. The result will be totally perfect, I used to apply this method a lot of times before, and I never get any problem with it. :)
thx, might try this the next time. i've been wondering though why soap should remove a bent in an overlay? isn't the soap just there to move the overlay around?
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Yup....and I've never used the "whet" method, granted I've never done large side-art. Come to think of it.....I've never done _any_ side-art ! :shock: :shock:
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The guys at my printer also reccomend the wet method:
https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2109.msg26597#msg26597 (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2109.msg26597#msg26597)
that is on plexi or glass, so it might as well work good on vinyl too i guess.. ???
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Dunno, on all the things I _have_ done like CPO's I used the dry method. The soapy method sounds messy to me. But I understand it will allow you to reposition. But that was never an issue with CPO's because I use the buttons to fix it temporarily, then apply one side, remove the buttons and then apply the other half...
Where do I get a squeegee (funny word) from 3M like that Ully ?
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Dunno, on all the things I _have_ done like CPO's I used the dry method. The soapy method sounds messy to me. But I understand it will allow you to reposition. But that was never an issue with CPO's because I use the buttons to fix it temporarily, then apply one side, remove the buttons and then apply the other half...
i totally agree, although i have heard of a lot of people using the wet method. to me, water and adhesive just don't match, but who knows, i might try it some time, for now i'm happy with the dry method!
Where do I get a squeegee (funny word) from 3M like that Ully ?
i think i bought mine off ebay, but you have to make sure you get the golden model, because it is, although more expensive, the best model (well, it's golden after all, isn't it?). however, only use the squeegee when the artwork has a protective layer (because there might be some dust on the art and you will easily get a scratch on it), for art without that you have to use a roller like the one shown on my pictures. i got mine from a home depot in the wallpaper section!
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Mmmmm, yeah didn't think about that scratching. I got a really nice roller from an "artist" shop (rubber roller, bit smaller than yours) and now I think of it, it has a "squeegee" side too !
Will use that for now :)
Here's the roller I've got (and where I got it from:)
http://www.harolds.nl/p/grafisch/linosnede/aandrukrollers/pag/1/p/roller-r3/#roller-r3
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linosnede
[Totally offtopic mode on]
That was one of my favorite workshops at elementary School ;D
[/Totally offtopic mode off]
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Slightly off topic, but if you want to avoid scratches due to an irregularity on your squeegee, simply put a piece of painter masking tape on it:
(http://teamworkphoto.com/shop/images/masking_tape_Large.jpg)
It will smooth your edge, and avoid some minor scratches, but NEVER use a squeegee who has a cut on its edge!
Finally, last tip, if you have some bubbles, it's not totally catastrophic, simply use a very small pin to make a nearly transparend hole on the bubble, press it with your thumb slightly, "et voilà" ;)
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guys, i need some help with the monitor wiring: my cabinet had an electrohome go7cbo monitor installed, but the original frogger cabinet used different monitors. therefore, the monitor connector of the harness doesn't fit into the go7cbo connector on the chassis. normally not a problem, just switch the connector, but i don't know which wire is for ground, for vertical and for horizontal output.
here's a picture of the connector:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6177/6181479799_d2bb7aa421_b_d.jpg)
rgb is clear and i thought that black would be ground, but what about yellow and white? additionally, there are schematics which show black as not being ground (check out schematics 700-0068 vs 700-0069). here (http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-videogames/F/Frogger.pdf) is a link to the frogger manual!
would be cool if you guys could help me out here ...
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I see this :
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/frog01.jpg)
White = V Sync
Black = Ground
Yellow = H Sync
To be sure, folow the black, white and yellow leads back to the edge connector and check what pin they are connected to.
compare that to the pinout of the board, and you know what is what ;)
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right, but on the next page of the manual you see this :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6167/6182298684_a56a9e5fa7_d.jpg)
additionally, the order of the wires is mixed up ...
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The colors doesn't matter ! Follow them and just look where they are connected
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The colors doesn't matter ! Follow them and just look where they are connected
well, they go to the pcb connector of course, which means checking the pinout of the connector should do the trick, right?
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Thats what i said ;)
To be sure, folow the black, white and yellow leads back to the edge connector and check what pin they are connected to.
compare that to the pinout of the board, and you know what is what ;)
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ok, followed the wires to the pcb connector, yellow ends in A15, white in A12. now what does that mean, which is which? here's the pinout :arrow:
A is soldering side
B is parts side
A1 -5VDC
A2 SPEAKER
A3 2P SW1
A4 2P LEFT
A5 1P START
A6
A7 1P SW1
A8 1P RIGHT
A9 1P UP
A10 COIN 1
A11 1P DOWN
A12
A13 VIDEO GREEN
A14 VIDEO RED
A15
A16 GROUND
A17 GROUND
A18 +5VDC
B1 12VDC
B2 SPEAKER
B3
B4 2P RIGHT
B5 2P START
B6 2P UP
B7 TEST
B8 1P LEFT
B9 2P DOWN
B10 COIN 2
B11 COUNTER 1
B12 COUNTER 2
B13 VIDEO BLUE
B14 SYNC
B15
B16 GROUND
B17 GROUND
B18 +5VDC
eh, A12 and A15 are blank, probably because the vertical / horizontal input is different on the individual monitors. what now? can i destroy the monitor if i mix up vertical and horizontal output?
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Very unlikely. probably will just give a very unsynced picture.
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Yep, just hook it up and check the picture, if its giving stange image, change them around, and check again
I dont think you screw up a monitor by mixing them up
too bad the monitor does not uses a combined h&v Sync, the you could just hook it up at B14..
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thx guys, i'll just give it a try! 50:50 chance - better than the lottery :P
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Looks like the Go7 needs separate H and V sync...but try anyway.
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Looks like the Go7 needs separate H and V sync...but try anyway.
you mean combining sync?
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Put both the yellow and white wire on the B14 SYNC and have a look what happens.
If your lucky it will work.
I don't know if Frogger uses positive or negative sync. Anybody ?
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Apparently there are many different versions of Frogger boards ? =>
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/79366-25-need-expert-frogger-help
Looks like some do have separate sync...?
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Apparently there are many different versions of Frogger boards ? =>
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/79366-25-need-expert-frogger-help
Looks like some do have separate sync...?
wasn't my board set up for separate sync with the way the pcb connector was / is wired ?
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My Sega Frogger has the Konami pinout, it works perfect with the Konami to Jamma adapter.
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Totally off topic, but if you have finished your restoration of this great game, this might be a nice addition to your PCB. Maybe you alread heard of it: Freeplay for Frogger with Attract Screen: http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/frogger.htm
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thx eric, but i have already ordered this one (http://www.arcadeshop.com/frogger-kit/frogger-kit.htm)! :)
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tech question: can a 120v monitor work properly when powered by only 100v?
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hmm, i dont think so... but one can always try ;D
The monitor manual states a range from 108 - 132 Volts..
http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-monitors/Electrohome%20G07-901.pdf (http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-monitors/Electrohome%20G07-901.pdf)
page 4. ;)
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hmm, i dont think so... but one can always try ;D
i did, but nothing shows (tried it with three different chassis, because i know that at least one of them is not working properly). the thing is that i bought the wiring harness along the power block from the usa and the main wires are soldered to the 100v terminal (see the following picture. note that the brown wire had come off and has been re-attached in the meantime).
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6007/6207592295_3566906d26_b_d.jpg)
however, i got a picture from john "hey guys, we are in the basement" of his frogger setup and the picture shows his brown and pink wires going to the 120v terminal (and nothing to the 100v)! makes more sense to me, but i'm curious why my wires are attached to the 100v terminal in the first place ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6076/6208107228_00aa011863_b_d.jpg)
perhaps i should simply solder them to 120v - what do you think?
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Maybe the cab your wiring came from a cab that used a Japanese monitor? I had the same issue with my Tehkan Phoenix when the flyback died in it's (unknown) monitor. To get a Hantarex in there instead I had to add a new isolation transformer to replace the original monitors 100v one.
Paul.
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ah, didn't know there were monitors which are running on less voltage. i guess i should solder the wires to 120v then and give it a try ...
one more thing: the +5v voltage on the pcb connector is fine (+5.02v) when the connector is NOT connected to the pcb. however, once i attach the connector +5v drops down to roughly +4.2v. any comments on this?
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Most likely there is a bad/dirty connection in the wiring loom - clean the PCB edge connector (both PCB and connector itself) and make sure the power supply connectors on the other end are clean and tight. Check all of the +5v and ground wires (often there are multiple wires between the power supply terminals and the connector terminals so the load is spread).
Paul.
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Most likely there is a bad/dirty connection in the wiring loom - clean the PCB edge connector (both PCB and connector itself) and make sure the power supply connectors on the other end are clean and tight.
the thing is that i have +5.02v when measured at the switcher and +5.02v when measured at the unconnected connector. however, once i attach the connector the +5.02v stay the same at the switcher but drop to around +4.20v at the attached connector!
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Yes, under a load the voltage drops the farther away it gets from the power supply. If you get 4.2V on the wire thats attached to the PCB edge connector, then the bad connection or wire is between there and the power supply. You're looking for the point at which the 5V is lost.
Paul.
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perhaps i should simply solder them to 120v - what do you think?
100 % ;)
Youre getting smarter my the minute Ully ;D
(no offence !)
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put yout dvm in ohms reading and measure WITH POWER OFF between the +5V terminal on the switcher and the +5V terminal on the connector. Should be very close to zero.
Then do the same with the 0v or GND or whatever it's called.
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put yout dvm in ohms reading and measure WITH POWER OFF between the +5V terminal on the switcher and the +5V terminal on the connector. Should be very close to zero.
Then do the same with the 0v or GND or whatever it's called.
just finished the tests as andré suggested: both measures (+5v and GND) came up with zero resistance. and now?
ah, didn't know there were monitors which are running on less voltage. i guess i should solder the wires to 120v then and give it a try ...
soldered the three wires (two pink and one brown) to 120v, checked the voltage output: roughly 123v at the switcher, the monitor connector (unconnected) and the marquee lighting fixture. after measuring the voltages i connected the monitor and almost died of a heart attach: spark flying around the monitor everywhere, even in the neck itself. checked all the connections on the chassis, but couldn't find a mistake. what could be causing that? the monitor is an electrohome and it should work fine under 120v - or am i mistaken?
one more thing: there are two wires running to the speaker. how much voltage is the speaker supposed to get and how / where do i measure those voltages?
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The resistance doesn't have to be much and may not show by measuring it directly and without a load (the power on and something connected). I've always used the "find where the voltage drops" method (see where the 5V begins to fall away to 4.2V).
For your monitor fireworks, that's not good. Maybe draw a picture of what you have connected and to where, including the existing wiring you have on the loom you have?
Paul.
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I'd like to see a picture of that transformer with the wires out of the way of the schematic on it...
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The resistance doesn't have to be much and may not show by measuring it directly and without a load (the power on and something connected). I've always used the "find where the voltage drops" method (see where the 5V begins to fall away to 4.2V).
should i only check the +5v line or also the grounds?
For your monitor fireworks, that's not good. Maybe draw a picture of what you have connected and to where, including the existing wiring you have on the loom you have?
i'm afraid something's wrong with the wiring of the transformator, i'll some pictures soon replying to andre's request.
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I'd like to see a picture of that transformer with the wires out of the way of the schematic on it...
like this? :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6163/6214712417_239e74f880_b_d.jpg)
in more detail: upper and lower part!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6059/6215228676_281980e6fe_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6223/6215229274_d4f963a852_b_d.jpg)
looking at the following picture again (and knowing the fact that there were "wire residues" when i attached the three wires to the 120v terminal), i tend towards moving the two pink wires back to 100v and leaving the brown wire on 120v. it looks as if it belongs there, as if it had been there from the beginning and just came off during transport. would that make any sense at all? the two pink wires at 100 and the brown one at 120v?
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6007/6207592295_3566906d26_b_d.jpg)
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I LOVE THIS GAME. I even came up with lyrics to the opening song. Heres how it goes:
Why did the frog cross the road?
Did he want to go to the other side
or he wanted to die.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...
I've seen that type used before and I've seen it used differently than I think you're trying to use it here.
The two identical windings on the primary side (left) and they are both used as the mains side input. They are driven together in parallel for 120V and in series for 240V. It's not intended that the 120V input on one primary is used to generate an isolated 120V output on the other primary. The 0-120V tap on the secondary (right) side is the isolated tap for the monitor.
On the left side, the mains input will need to go to both 0 and 120V inputs for a 120V mains supply. The other taps on the primary (left) side are not usually used for outputs.
Does that make sense? You should be connecting 120V live to each of the two 120V tabs on the primary (left) windings and neutral to the two 0V taps on the primary (left). Your monitor connects to the 0-120V tabs on the secondary (right) side.
Paul.
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It looks like 120 volt is the primary side of this transformer..
but you said you got 123 at the monitor connection, so that should be fine..
is there another transformer in that cabinet , or are you feeding 230 volts into the 120 connector of the transformer now ?
Or maybe you can explane the "path" from the mains plug so we can trace where the problem might be ?
one more thing: there are two wires running to the speaker. how much voltage is the speaker supposed to get and how / where do i measure those voltages?
I dont think you can measure that in voltages.. or maybe you can, because when i was young i have connected a 6 volts "bicycle" lightbulb to the audio source and the light was dimming and getting brighter on the beat ::)
i think the best way to check that is to listen if you hear the sounds of the game, so credit and start a game, i think frogger has continue music AFAIK
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is there another transformer in that cabinet , or are you feeding 230 volts into the 120 connector of the transformer now ?
Or maybe you can explane the "path" from the mains plug so we can trace where the problem might be ?
no other transformer! i'm feeding the 230v into a stepdown converter, from there 120v run into the transformer and a switcher!
Does that make sense? You should be connecting 120V live to each of the two 120V tabs on the primary (left) windings and neutral to the two 0V taps on the primary (left). Your monitor connects to the 0-120V tabs on the secondary (right) side.
unfortunately it doesn't make sense to me. perhaps someone could do a drawing ... :-[
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I LOVE THIS GAME. I even came up with lyrics to the opening song. Hers how it goes:
Why did the frog cross the road?
Did he want to go to the other side
or he wanted to die.
Nice! :) Slight de-rail, there actually are lyrics as the song was taken from a Japanese children's song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNKDPKEank8&feature=related
Other songs in the game were "appropriated" from these Animes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru90p1gg1ao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fA8AkruDJs
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no other transformer! i'm feeding the 230v into a stepdown converter, from there 120v run into the transformer and a switcher!
Ahh thanks god ! ;D i mean the big red sticker does say 120 Volts, so thats what it expects when its wired as you get it from the US.
Does that make sense? You should be connecting 120V live to each of the two 120V tabs on the primary (left) windings and neutral to the two 0V taps on the primary (left). Your monitor connects to the 0-120V tabs on the secondary (right) side.
unfortunately it doesn't make sense to me. perhaps someone could do a drawing ... :-[
I get what he tries to say, i only dont know how to explane it :-\
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I dont think you can measure that in voltages.. or maybe you can, because when i was young i have connected a 6 volts "bicycle" lightbulb to the audio source and the light was dimming and getting brighter on the beat ::)
i think the best way to check that is to listen if you hear the sounds of the game, so credit and start a game, i think frogger has continue music AFAIK
i don't get anything from the speakers, but that's probably because the main pcb doesn't get enough power and therefore won't start ...
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I get what he tries to say, i only dont know how to explane it :-\
one of the problems is that i don't understand the schematics on the transformer! let's try it like this: on the left (primary?) there are five terminals, from top to bottom they are labelled as follows:
1 = 120V / 1.5A
2 = 100V
3 = 0
4 = 9.5V / 1.2A
5 = 0
on the right side (secondary) there are six terminals, from top to bottoms they are labelled as follows:
1 = 14.5V / 1.8A
2 = 0
3 = 14.5V / 0.2A
4 = 0
5 = 16.5V / 1.2A
6 = 0
the transformer also has a backside (who would have guessed? :P), do you need a picture of that as well?
i'm wondering though: since the transformer (along with the wiring harness) was pulled from a frogger cabinet, shouldn't it be wired up correctly? does the brown wire on the 120v terminal and the two pink wires on the 100v terminal (which i think was the original position of those three wires) not make any sense?
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OK, I have drawn a picture as best I can...
Paul.
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Why does this feel like an air traffic controller that's trying to talk down a plane without a pilot ? ;D ;D ;D
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[EDIT]
hehehe, paul was faster with paint than me ;)
anyway, its the same as i thought ;D
[/EDIT]
I am going to try it anyway, so if i am not correct please correct me ;)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/frogtransformer.jpg)
i think what paul tries to say is that there are two primary sides that are connected both in a 120 volt setup, and has 2 secondary sides; one as isolation for the monitor, and the bottom one has a bunch op different low voltage outputs
its like there is a line in the middle of the transformer that splits it in two transformers in one block.
anyway, if this is correct it should be possible to connect it like this and then you dont need a stepdown transformer:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/frogtransformer2.jpg)
Why does this feel like an air traffic controller that's trying to talk down a plane without a pilot ? ;D ;D ;D
LOL ! :spaceace:
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Why does this feel like an air traffic controller that's trying to talk down a plane without a pilot ? ;D ;D ;D
it IS possible 8) the thing is that i don't really understand what that transformer does, why there are five terminals on the left labeled like listed above, but the schematics on the transformer itself show something different. it's like reading a language where i know the individual letters but the sum of them (the word) doesn't make sense because it's a language i don't understand. i'm more confused now than ever ... damn! and you guys are trying so hard!
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aren't those labels on the left and on the right side of the transformer (120V and 14.5V) for the individual terminals on the left and on the right side? i just don't understand where those schematics in the middle have to be "applied" to (if you know what i mean) ...
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Oh and one more pic of the dividing that i was assuming:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/frogtransformer3.jpg)
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aren't those labels on the left and on the right side of the transformer (120V and 14.5V) for the individual terminals on the left and on the right side? i just don't understand where those schematics in the middle have to be "applied" to (if you know what i mean) ...
I count 10 terminals on the left (primary side) and 11 at the right (secundary side) in the schematic sticker.
are there also an equal amount of connection terminals there ?
if so , the should match this..
(measure them to be sure)
... damn! and you guys are trying so hard!
I am touched :'( Please don't cry Ully, we'll get you there ;)
....the transformer also has a backside (who would have guessed? :P), do you need a picture of that as well?
Does it has terminals on the back ?
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I count 10 terminals on the left (primary side) and 11 at the right (secundary side) in the schematic sticker.
are there also an equal amount of connection terminals there ?
i'm confused ???. what do you mean with "left and right side"? are you talking about the "real" left and right sides of the side where the sticker is on or do you in fact mean the back and the front side of the transformer? because on the back side there are indeed ten terminals (five on each side) and the conections look like this :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6035/6215010861_6b234e030b_b_d.jpg)
on the front side (the one which i though we would be talking about all the time, the one with the sticker) there are 11 terminals, 5 on the left and 6 on the right - like etienne suggested. so if i understood this correctly the primary side is the one you called left side (i called it back side) and the secondary side is the one you called right side (which i called front side), right?
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Mmmm, might have been handy to show that second side right away ......... :shock:
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Mmmm, might have been handy to show that second side right away ......... :shock:
i know, but i possed that question a while ago, but then paul started talking about the left and the right side after i posted the picture of the front and i thought he meant the left and the right side of the picture - which he obviously did not :P
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Now the schematics make sense. That bottom side is what is on the LEFT on that schematic drawing. That is the primary side.
Easy.
On the top side you have all the secondary connections, which are on the right side of the schematic.
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Left and right side of the xformer schematic (it's electrical layout). The taps are configured with the primaries on the "front" and the secondaries on the "back". It's connected in parallel so it looks good as long as you're not feeding it 240V :)
Where does the white wire attached to the 100V tap on the left go to? I've sometimes seen this used to feed the marque lights.
When you say you had sparks everywhere, including in the neck, I've seen this once, and it was when the tube had been necked (broken). Did the monitor previously work?
Paul.
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i assumed left and right based on the "front" of the transformer, i did not know it had connectors at the back side remember ;)
the terminal count is correct with the schematic sticker on the front, so yeah, i think the primary side is the back of the transformer..
now it getting more confusing ??? ;D
can you check where the red and black lead go of the "back" of the transformer ? if they go to the mains, then this is the primary side..
still should it be possible to wire it as 240 volts then, as the schematics states that possibility..
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now that you had me confused (because of a false interpretation left and right) let's get back to the original question / problem: the pink / brown and blue wire on the left of the secondary side. atm, the two pink wires and the brown one are connected to the 120v terminal, the blue wire is connected to 0. the pink wires run into one AC terminal of the switcher, the blue wire is spliced up later with one wire running into the other AV switcher terminal and the other wire running to the monitor. the brown wire runs into the monitor almost directly. why "almost"? because both the blue and the brown wire are spliced up again, because they also power the lighting fixture. can you still follow me? basically, blue and brown are running on 120V (123V to be more precise), the two pink wires (which go to the switcher) were originally connected to 100V, but right now they are also connected to the 120V terminal - but now i have the problem with the fireworks on the monitor.
should i try re-attaching the pink wires to 100V (thus feeding 100V into the switcher) and only connecting the brown wire to the 120V terminal (don't think this would change anything though). or should i re-attach all three wires to 100V (thus feeding both 100V into the switcher and the monitor) and try to find the "leak" which is stealing voltages on my +5V line? i do get a neckglow when running the monitor with 100V, just no picture. could this simply because the pcb doesn't get enough "juice"?
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can you check where the red and black lead go of the "back" of the transformer ? if they go to the mains, then this is the primary side..
they do go to mains or - to be more precise - they come from mains, right?
Where does the white wire attached to the 100V tap on the left go to? I've sometimes seen this used to feed the marque lights.
it ends in an unsued connector (there are three unused connector all in all). do you need a picture of it? the marquee lights are being fed through the blue and brown wire as stated above and work just fine!
When you say you had sparks everywhere, including in the neck, I've seen this once, and it was when the tube had been necked (broken). Did the monitor previously work?
no idea, i pulled it out of an untested cab. however, no sparks at all when powering it with 100V, but a nice neckglow! doesn't look as if it has been necked ...
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Stand-in pilot to tower: "Ah, so you mean that the BLUE part of the artificial horizon is UP ?"
(http://www.surclaro.com/thumbs/phpThumb.php?src=../modules/Media_Gallery/gallery/Screenshots/FS2004/a380_upsidedown_flying.JPG&w=570)
I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself..sorry Ully ;D
Honestly, that is the must fucked up and confusing schematic on that transformer I've seen....
The sad thing that that monitor is probably already crashed...
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The sad thing that that monitor is probably already crashed...
the big question is: WHY? i fed 123V into an electrohome, that's it. that shouldn't have ignited fireworks, should it?
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You guys post too fast, i have yet finished my new sketch ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/frogtransformer4.jpg)
note that the 240 sugestion is theoreticly !, i need a conformation from the other guys, since i am not sure..
thats pure expirimental ;D
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Doesn't make sense, actually trying to re-coup everything I don't really get what went wrong...
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could be a crack in the neck..
was the monitor ok before you started ?
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no idea, i pulled it out of an untested cab. however, no sparks at all when powering it with 100V, but a nice neckglow! doesn't look as if it has been necked ...
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did you tried all 3 chassis ?
maybe this one was the faulty chassis that shorted out when you applied 123 volts to it ?
in combination with the comments before about a 100 volts monitor ???
does that make sence ? i dont have a clue just guessing..
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did you tried all 3 chassis ?
maybe this one was the faulty chassis that shorted out when you applied 123 volts to it ?
nope, i didn't! but i did try all three chassis with the 100v setup and there were no fireworks at all. two came up with neckglow, one didn't work, that's it!
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Okay, then we can assume that the one with no neckglow in the 100 volt setup is the bad chassis.
Thats one good thing, now the rest..
are you absolutely sure there was no accidental short somewhere with the assembly of the chassis ?
i mean it doesnt make sence that it almost explodes with that less power difference
did you check it again at 100 volts setup ? or is it complete dead now ?
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are you absolutely sure there was no accidental short somewhere with the assembly of the chassis ?
i mean it doesnt make sence that it almost explodes with that less power difference
i'd say i'm almost 100% positive!
did you check it again at 100 volts setup ? or is it complete dead now ?
don't know yet, i will return to the original setup this afternoon and run some tests. will report back later ...
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just checked the +5V line from the switcher to the pcb, here are the results (all measures taken "under load"):
at the switcher: +5.03
at the first connector: +5.01
at the second connector: +4.90
at the pcb (longest wire in between): +4.72
basically that's a drop of roughly 0.3 volts. is that within tolerance levels? would it suffice to "crank up" the switcher to +5.36 volts which would result in a +5.02 volts measure at the pcb connector?
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The current ON the pcb is all that counts. How much it is on its way to it's destination is irrelevant. I have a (Sega) Frogger PCB too and I think it needed a bit more than 5.0xV. You can test to crank it up to 5.2V on the pcb ... after that it gets critical, some TTL parts only have tollerance til 5,25V. Personally I always turn the voltages up to 5.1V, works on most games very well ;).
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But always measure the 5.1 or 5.2 Volt WITH a load on it ..
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Those are pretty high drops IMHO. This means pretty poor contact between all the connectors. Replacing them is a good idea.
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Those are pretty high drops IMHO. This means pretty poor contact between all the connectors. Replacing them is a good idea.
the question is: is it necessary to do so or just a good idea? ;)
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The current ON the pcb is all that counts. How much it is on its way to it's destination is irrelevant. I have a (Sega) Frogger PCB too and I think it needed a bit more than 5.0xV. You can test to crank it up to 5.2V on the pcb ... after that it gets critical, some TTL parts only have tollerance til 5,25V. Personally I always turn the voltages up to 5.1V, works on most games very well ;).
alright, cranked up the voltage to +5.01v at the pcb connector, then did some measures on the chips (7400 series) of the board itself. the frogger pcb basically of 1 1/2 pcbs stacked on each other, the connector plugs into the "half board" on top. voltages at the chips on the top board (the half one where the connector goes in) are now at 4.99 volts. those measures drop to 4.89 volts all over the lower board. is that normal?
should i crank up the switcher power so that roughly 5.1 volts are on the upper and 5.0 volts on the lower board?
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Yes, try and crank it like that ... If that helps, you can go on and change or clean the connectors because you have a contact problem there.
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here's an update on the monitor:
- put the two pink wires back on the 100v terminal, left the brown one at the 120v terminal (thus feeding 100v into the switcher and 120v into the monitor) :arrow: fireworks
- put the brown wire back on the 100v terminal as well (thus feeding 100v into both the switcher and the monitor) :arrow: fireworks
??? ??? ???
i'm going to give it a try with another chassis now and see what happens - this is strange indeed!
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tried it with a second chassis at 100v :arrow: fireworks!!!
man, this is driving me n-u-t-s :evil:
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Thats the reason why Hobby-Freaks may not work on this !
Call a professional or learn to interprete wiring diagrams.
Or call Winni ! Send some greetings !
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Thats the reason why Hobby-Freaks may not work on this !
Call a professional or learn to interprete wiring diagrams.
Or call Winni ! Send some greetings !
hobby-freaks :evil:
why should i interpret any wiring diagram in this case? it was working fine yesterday, i changed some wires to feed 120 into the monitor, changed it back, not working anymore. no reason to turn to professionels right away, in fact we have a lot of professionals here on the board who are willing to help out ...
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hmm, that is strange indeed...
well, not really surprising, because like i said, its not that big difference in voltage.
do you have another 110 volt monitor around that you can hook up to the setup ?
if that works, then its clear you got a problem in the electrohome, maybe something in the tube shorted out ?
(dont know if that is possible, but the colorcanons are in there afaik ;))
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do you have another 110 volt monitor around that you can hook up to the setup ?
i have a couple of hantarex lying around, but i (a) don't know about their voltages and (b) whether they are working at all. got them for free as spares, never needed to test them ...
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i have to get back to the speaker problem: let's say the speaker is working, but i don't know whether it gets the correct input through the two wires leading up to it. is there anything i can do to test those wires? resistance, voltage, ...?
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Sure,
take this: (http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/06/walkman_bbc.jpg) or any other device that produces audio and has this kind of connection (laptop, pc soundcard whaterever)
and then take a plug like this : (http://rocky.digikey.com/weblib/CUI%20Inc/Web%20Photo/New%20Photos/SP-2501.jpg)
connect the wire of the speaker and insert this plug in your device;
"press play on tape" ;D and when you hear the sound it means its ok ;)
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well, basically that's hooking up the speaker to the wires, isn't it? there must be a way to measure something with a DMM ...
btw, what is this? :arrow:
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/06/walkman_bbc.jpg)
;)
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A Walkman?
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yes, you can "beeb" the wires ofcourse to see if there is a break in one of the cables.
Or here the connections :
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/35jack.jpg)
Or simply cut off an existing cable:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/jackplug.jpg)
The "bare wire" is the ground, the white and red wires are the right+ or Left+ leads..
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since the old monitor seemed to have stopped working properly, i pulled out another spare monitor from my shelf: a matsushita. those monitors are known for their poor construction, but i knew that it was working when it was pulled. unfortunately, it doesn't need separate positive sync like the electrohome monitor, but composite negative sync. with the help of a friendly klover (thx michael :-*) i managed to make the correct adjustments to the wiring and hooked everything up. after living in a wiring / parts mess for weeks, here's how my study looks :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6240/6235021784_25ee54b01b_b_d.jpg)
so i anxiously plugged in the game, pulled the interlock switch, heard the high voltage crackle, watched the neck starting to glow and walked around the monitor to see this picture :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6054/6235022674_f8cb5050f2_b_d.jpg)
F :spaceace: R :spaceace: O :spaceace: G :spaceace: G :spaceace: E :spaceace: R
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6031/6235021014_b93c45d731_b_d.jpg)
the picture is somewhat distorted at the top (adjusting the pots didn't change anything), so i might do a cap kit on the chassis, but i'm afraid to touch that matsushita monitor because i've heard so many bad things. nevertheless, i'm thrilled!!! :)
now all i need to do is throw everything into the cab and try to fix that sound problem, because i'm not getting ANYTHING from the speaker - not even a hum or a crackle. from what i've read, the frogger boards are notorious for sound failure, so i might have to ask a professional to look into this ...
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As far as I know, there were a separate pcb for the sound in Frogger cabs, my old friend built a nice hack to my Sega pcb, he told me, that without this modification there will be no sound.I've just heard it, I'm not sure it is true for all kinds of Frogger pcbs.
(Sorry for the bad quality pics, poor light here)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-01p3_66zcHY/TpR_ErE-D5I/AAAAAAAAExA/oMVyLGmvEUI/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520003.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s_9BAJ-5CqE/TpR_E1DLifI/AAAAAAAAExE/mJf9yIlAZxc/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520004.jpg)
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Great Ully ! :spaceace:
So there is image now, and the monitor is on the 120 volt line ?
Anyway, there must be something wrong with the other tube, and personally i think its fried now...
@ Bela:
You still ow me some pictures of your old's friend workshop ;)
I like that dude !
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So there is image now, and the monitor is on the 120 volt line ?
Anyway, there must be something wrong with the other tube, and personally i think its fried now...
yes, running on the 120v line! don't know what went wrong with the old monitor, but i'll probably dump it ...
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As far as I know, there were a separate pcb for the sound in Frogger cabs, my old friend built a nice hack to my Sega pcb, he told me, that without this modification there will be no sound.I've just heard it, I'm not sure it is true for all kinds of Frogger pcbs.
as far as i know, that 1/2 pcb on top of the full pcb is responsible for the sound. will have to dig into it a little bit deeper. i'm just confused that i don't get ANYTHING from the speaker at all. shouldn't there at least be a hum?
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Frogger neccessarily needs a volume pot on the 6-pin connector (labeled 6P) on the upper board to play sound. It is a 200 ohms, when I remember right ;) wire it like this: pin 2 of 6P goes to pin 1 of the pot, pin 4 of 6P goes to pin 2 of the pot and finally pin 6 of 6P goes to pin 3. Then you hear sound ;)
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Frogger neccessarily needs a volume pot on the 6-pin connector (labeled 6P) on the upper board to play sound. It is a 200 ohms, when I remember right ;) wire it like this: pin 2 of 6P goes to pin 1 of the pot, pin 4 of 6P goes to pin 2 of the pot and finally pin 6 of 6P goes to pin 3. Then you hear sound ;)
thx mr caveman, but if you look close enough at the "mess picture", you will see that there is a connector attached to that 6-pin connector. a grey wire runs from there to the coin door into a potentiometer. i haven't checked that wire yet and the poti is untested as well (don't remember how to test a potentiometer atm), this is the first thing i have to do before doing anything else.
just to make sure: it is of utmost importance which wire goes into which speaker terminal (+ and -, right)? how do i know which wire and which terminal is what?
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In general, yes, it should be wired + to + and - to -
but no matter how you connect it you should hear sound anyway
sometimes there is an indicator at the terminals of the speakers on the "white tap" which is which
Got a pic of the speaker terminals ?
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sometimes there is an indicator at the terminals of the speakers on the "white tap" which is which
Got a pic of the speaker terminals ?
not yet, i'll take one tomorrow. however, i don't know which wire is which polarity either ... ??? :-\
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just "beeped" through the potentiometer wires: the black one is fine, however, with the red and the white one i get a beep no matter which wire the multimeter lead is touching. to make it clearer: both leads at the ends of the white wire give me a beep, but one lead at the white wire and the other at the red wire also give me a beep (and the other way round). note that the wires are still attached to the potentiometer. is that a factor to be considered?
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A potmeter is a variable resistor... so measure ohms instead of continuity
i'll try to explane as far as i know it,
Experts here, please correct me if i am wrong, so i learn also ;D
I made a sketch of the inside of a potmeter in 4 situations:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/potmeter.jpg)
As you may know, the path that electricity likes is the one of less resistance..
so lets say this is a 100K ohm potmeter, the red line represents the resistance in the potmeter, the blue with the arrow represents the contact that is variable.
I drew the green line as an example path if you enter the potmeter at terminal "A" of the potmeter and terminal "B" as the "exit"
Lets say in an optimal situation that the resistance in example "1" is 0 Ohm, since that is the shortest path.
in example 3 the resistence should be 100K ohms, as for example 2, it should be a around 55 -60 K Ohm
In theory if the potmeter is broken (example 4 where you see that the axle is not there) you should not have any connection at all
measure in that case "A" and "C", and it should be 100K.
I hope you understand it, and that my theory is correct ;)
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thx etienne, but i've already tested the potentiometer and it came out fine. what i did was "beep through" the wires (from the connector TO the potentiometer) and this is where i got the mix-up described above with the white / red wire beeping when it is not supposed to do that ...
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Take a pic of the config you are measuring please, i think you measure continuety because of the way its connected
anyway, pic please ;) ;D
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sometimes there is an indicator at the terminals of the speakers on the "white tap" which is which
Got a pic of the speaker terminals ?
just took some pictures for you :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6170/6237274183_309c5f3761_b_d.jpg)
when i looked at them at the computer, i was both surprised and shocked that + and - are indeed marked next to the terminals. the designation is there, albeit very small. man, my eyesight is getting worse! over the last few months i had to realize that i'm having difficulties reading small stuff at close range - damn!!! :(
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6224/6237274409_d9c8917868_b_d.jpg)
one problem solved, another one remains: which wire is which? can't find the information in the schematics (however, i might just be too stupid to read it :P)
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Take a pic of the config you are measuring please, i think you measure continuety because of the way its connected
your wish is my command! :spaceace:
here's a picture of that 6-pin connector which goes to the main board. note that i've got the feeling that some blank wires coming out of the cable on the left are touching. don't know though whether they are all from a single-colored wire or from different ones. i guess it would be a good idea to renew that connection, but then again i would have to remove the terminals from the connector and i have no replacements for them - yet ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6100/6237798272_25347b0af4_b_d.jpg)
here's the potentiometer "on the other side" :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6225/6237274851_20261df5a8_b_d.jpg)
let me tell you once again: the black wire (which is the top one at the potentiometer picture) beeps through perfectly (no matter whether i touch any other wires or not), but when i put a lead on the white wire on one side and on the red wire on the other side i get a beep as well, the same happens when i do it the other way round. the seems to be a connection between red and white (but no connection between black and red / black and white). the questions is: is there something wrong with the wiring or is it because the wires are connected to the potentiometer? perhaps i should unsolder them and repeat the test ...
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Yep, unsolder them, and test again
or do the test with the potmeter totally turned to the other direction
i think your results will also twist then ;)
About the speaker, i knew it was on the white tab, it is there in 99,9% of the cases ;D
the schematics say orange and blue wires and when i folow the blue it is connected to ground, so that should be connected to the "-" terminal of the speaker
the orange goes to the "+"..
Many times this is the case (the color red is close to orange, and the color blue is close to black)
Also i would suggest to "beep" from some point on the board where is ground to see which of the two wires beeps at the other end.
that must be the ground wire then..
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Yep, unsolder them, and test again
or do the test with the potmeter totally turned to the other direction
i think your results will also twist then ;)
thx etienne, everything you say sounds very logical 8)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6212/6237512283_b3885706a0_d.jpg)
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+ or - normally does't matter much if you have mono (1 speaker) sound.
After all, a speaker gets AC, not DC. So there is no REAL + or -.
The only reason for them to be there is that if you have stereo set-up, you want the speakers to be in PHASE.
That means, that when you have the same sound on both speakers, both speakers will move out and in at the same time. If one would be connected reversely, one speaker would move IN and the other OUT while getting the same signal. This produces a "hollow" and strange sound.
But in mono set-up, it doesn't matter at all.
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while trying to figure out all that wiring stuff, i had worked "secretly" (8)) on the control panel. got one from anthony@quarterarcade and a new overlay from steven@arcadeshop :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6045/6237506833_ece651cd57_b_d.jpg)
let's compare the original overlay with the reproduction part
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6220/6237506087_e45cb0f90b_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6214/6238028564_66447308c6_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6158/6237505107_e0072c381f_b_d.jpg)
as you can see, the colors are somewhat different, but all in all the details are there and the overlay is of high quality, so let's get the old one off!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/6238029504_8fa5e2754b_b_d.jpg)
the top layer of the old overlay comes off easily
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6164/6237507125_486161120d_b_d.jpg)
however, this is only the thin protective layer
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6164/6237504671_aa5b353379_b_d.jpg)
the rest of the overlay will have to be painstakingly removed by any means necessary :twisted:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6224/6238029264_2b4cc23bd1_b_d.jpg)
and then it's "off to the powdercoater" with the panel itself. i've decided to "go grey" this time because the overlay won't cover the panel 100% and there are some discrepancies with the pre-punched holes. this way, the slight differences won't be visible!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6057/6238025776_c0e90fa64e_b_d.jpg)
perfect quality - as always!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6225/6237502443_7b3b438543_b_d.jpg)
the usual cpo-installation-pictures
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6056/6237503049_28014d25b2_b_d.jpg)
i'm using the heat gun to "go around the edges" more easily and to prevent the overlay from cracking in the (distant) future!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6232/6238027330_a1319ca3c6_b_d.jpg)
the joystick bolts in protective mimicry
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6105/6237503285_bc6f903150_b_d.jpg)
moves like jagger frogger ;)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6038/6237503875_caaa4940b4_b_d.jpg)
the original player-select buttons were blue, but since that color is nowhere to be found on the overlay, i've decided to change them to yellow. not sure whether i'm going to stick with that color or not, i might try red as well to get in line with the joystick knob! for now, i like yellow though!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6120/6238027570_0c1c452f65_b_d.jpg)
another piece to the puzzle is finished, i'm getting closer to the end every day now! if only that package from the usa would arrive ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6216/6238026710_966438e61e_b_d.jpg)
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don't like the yellow buttons, makes it look a bit plain imo...
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don't like the yellow buttons, makes it look a bit plain imo...
i agree, but as i've said, i'm not 100% convinced yet either. but blue? ???
i'll have to try red ...
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+ or - normally does't matter much if you have mono (1 speaker) sound.
After all, a speaker gets AC, not DC. So there is no REAL + or -.
The only reason for them to be there is that if you have stereo set-up, you want the speakers to be in PHASE.
That means, that when you have the same sound on both speakers, both speakers will move out and in at the same time. If one would be connected reversely, one speaker would move IN and the other OUT while getting the same signal. This produces a "hollow" and strange sound.
But in mono set-up, it doesn't matter at all.
Cool, never knew that was the reaon !
I knew that it was moving inwards instead of outwards or the other way around depending on how you connect it but not the specific reason, so another lesson learned..
Thanks for that (looking afterwards) very logic explanation ! :spaceace:
Thats what i like about these kind of threats on the forum, you're never too old to learn !
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Yep, unsolder them, and test again
back from the testing board and the results are as expected: potentiometer fully working and the wires showing continuity all the way through without any discrepancies. damn, i will put everything back together again and focus on the speaker, perhaps the error can be found there. if not, it has to be a pcb issue!
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Could you still repeat the test like i discribed ?
so measure again but the with the potmeter to the opposite side as it was when you measured the first time..
I am curious if my theory was right 8)
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I am curious if my theory was right 8)
it was right! 8)
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I don't understand why you guys seem to completely ignore Béla's posting....because I think that is the key...
I bet you'll need an external amplifier.
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Did you check if the onboard sound amp (should be an M51516) gets its required +12V?
Also, is -5V connected? Maybe thats needed as well, but I'm not sure if this is case for Frogger.
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I don't understand why you guys seem to completely ignore Béla's posting....because I think that is the key...
I bet you'll need an external amplifier.
Not ignoring, i just assumed there was an onboard amplifier since there is this potmeter setup..
Ill go back and read Bela's post again..
EDIT:
And indeed after checking the manual there is a mention of a soundboard...
(page 81 and 97)
but also there are different kinds of PCB's in that manual, so could it be that there are boards with onboard Amps ?
Is there any indication on your boardset to see whichone you got Ully ?
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I don't understand why you guys seem to completely ignore Béla's posting....because I think that is the key...
I bet you'll need an external amplifier.
Not ignoring, i just assumed there was an onboard amplifier since there is this potmeter setup..
hmmm, i'm confused! what do you mean by "external amplifier"? there's no mentioning of that in the manual and from what i've read and heard the potmeter setup should do the trick. perhaps mr caveman could chime in, i don't think he has an external amplifier ...
And indeed after checking the manual there is a mention of a soundboard...
but also there are different kinds of PCB's in that manual..
Is there any indication on your boardset to see whichone you got Ully ?
sure, there are a lot of numbers on the board, let me show you some pictures! first of all the full board set: one "complete pcb" at the bottom, "half a pcb" on top of it (i thought this was the sound board, but i'm not sure anymore)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6104/6240280630_695a8635a1_b_d.jpg)
a closeup of that "half-pcb"
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6117/6239762765_589a08bb9b_b_d.jpg)
two numbers on the left: 834-0069 on the top board, 834-0068 on the lower board
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6099/6239762947_8d2ae40a14_b_d.jpg)
and another number on the top board: 834-0086
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6168/6239762569_792af16a55_b_d.jpg)
now which one is which? does this help you guys?
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The sound board is usually the upper board of the game pcb set, where the sound chips and amp are located.
I mean everything is possible, but I never had a Frogger board which needed external amplification, just the pot, and I had maybe 5 or 6. Even on Belas pic you can clearly see what should be the amp (below that selfmade pcb, just beside of one of those bigger caps, so I am a little confused why that extra circuit was necessary. ???
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Am I on everybodies ignore list? ;D
Check below that big metal thingy if you can see something like that, and if yes, check if it gets +12V:
(http://www.twistywristarcade.com/667-366-large/m51516-sound-amp.jpg)
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Did you check if the onboard sound amp (should be an M51516) gets its required +12V?
nope, need to find it first ;). once i've found it, do i check the +12V exactly the same way as i check the +5V on a chip?
EDIT: thx for showing me a picture of it, now all i need to do is find it! 8)
Also, is -5V connected? Maybe thats needed as well, but I'm not sure if this is case for Frogger.
no idea, not on the switcher itself, but it might be powered through the other power supply ...
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On page 94 of the manual, (assy 834-0069) at location "1-C" , there is a mention of -5 volts.. at a LM741 (amplifier) so it could very well be that this is missing and that could be the reason why you dont have sound..
the schematics of the "sound board" says 834-0074 which is not in your setup as far as i can judge..
Looking again at that part of the schematics, it does look very like the Hack on bela's board, which could indicate that the onboard amp was fried..
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On page 94 of the manual, (assy 834-0069) at location "1-C" , there is a mention of -5 volts.. at a LM741 (amplifier) so it could very well be that this is missing and that could be the reason why you dont have sound..
IC1 - is that what we're looking for?
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6159/6240705880_c42b9e1514_b_d.jpg)
Check below that big metal thingy if you can see something like that, and if yes, check if it gets +12V
found the b**** - the question remains: how / where do i measure the +12v?
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6168/6240189471_974455cb2e_b_d.jpg)
here's a picture of the same sound amp from the other side - does that look fried or is it only flux?
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/6240705578_68076566e6_b_d.jpg)
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Thats flux
Looks like they already replaced it before
EDIT:
IC1 - is that what we're looking for?
I was reffering to the position on the schematics: (the "C" on the right) ;)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/frogschema.jpg)
Here you see the chip, and that pin 9 is +12 volts.
Pin 2 & 6 are ground, so measure between pin 2 and 9.
Also you can see in the schematics that pin 4 of the LM471 wants -5Volt...
Oh, and maybe you ask yourself how to "count" the pins of IC's..
Like this : ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/iccount.jpg)
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For a start maybe you should check +12V and -5V at the PCBs connector if this is easier for you.
Frogger pinout: http://www.crazykong.com/pins/Frogger.pin.txt
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For a start maybe you should check +12V and -5V at the PCBs connector if this is easier for you.
thx sascha, i think i've isolated the problem now: it's the +12v line!!! on the edge connector i get something like -0.25v for +12v, -5v is well within limits. with that result in mind, i started tracing back the problem. let's start from the beginning with the huge power transformator. we've talked a lot about those wires on the left of the transformer's secondary side, but we never talked about all those colorful ones on the right. all the voltages coming out of the transformer's secondary right side are correct!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6007/6207592295_3566906d26_b_d.jpg)
all those wires (you can see them at the very bottom of the following picture) go into a small pcb (don't know what it is called) which is also part of the power supply. from what i understand, this pcb creates the -5v and the +12v.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6091/6240710539_08df01cbb7_b_d.jpg)
all that's coming out "on the other side" of that pcb are a couple of wires: green is -5v, red is +12v, black is GND and white i have no idea, but it "gets lost on its way to the pcb", meaning it ends in a connector somewhere in between. when i measure black and green i get -5.19v, but when i measure black and red i get ZERO volts (when measuring red and white i get roughly -2v). this means -5v is coming out nicely here, +12v is not!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6091/6241226722_67ea613979_b_d.jpg)
so the problem has to be on that small pcb somewhere and i'm pretty sure i've isolated it already! right before those red and green wires there are two ICs on the board, ic1 is for +12v (red wire) , ic2 for -5v (green wire).
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6045/6240710943_af27ff111d_b_d.jpg)
when examining those ics closer you can clearly see burn marks on ic1 (-5v) and when looking back at the start of this is remember some smoke and a strange smell coming from somewhere on the power supply. perhaps this is where it started all!!!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6116/6241226174_fbd2eb9b84_b_d.jpg)
now what i could do is replace that IC, but how about removing that small pcb entirely and hooking the -5v and the +12v directly up to the switcher. john "we are in the basement" has a similar setup without that board and when looking at one of his picture you can see that all the wires on the secondary side of the transformer have been removed, the small pcb is gone as well and the red and green wire are hooked up to the switcher. do you think that would work in my case as well? my setup is slightly different (+5v coming from somewhere else), but i've got the feeling this should work ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/6240711173_8c42fbb279_b_d.jpg)
what do you think? give it a try? or try to repair that ic / pcb?
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I would definitely go for the switcher ... Much more reliable and stable .. If you don't mind that that is not 100% original ...
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I would definitely go for the switcher ... Much more reliable and stable .. If you don't mind that that is not 100% original ...
i don't mind at all! that thing has to work - that's it. so simply removed the small pcb board and attach the red and green wire? i will have to check the wiring though because there are some other wires in that connector and john's setup is slightly different (e.g. on the fuse block), but theoratically it should work ...
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I would definitely go for the switcher ... Much more reliable and stable .. If you don't mind that that is not 100% original ...
More reliable ? I disagree.
More parts means more chance of failure. Also components are under pretty much stress (esp. caps) in a switcher.
Do not confuse being NEWER with more reliable... ;)
I'd like to see what the current Chinese swichters will do in about 30 years time....
Also....if possible, keep it original....it's part of the fun ;)
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Oops, Level42 slaps himself in the face.
I see now in what context PRC saidthat and i agree...get rid of that board since already have the switchen there...
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I would fix it and throw out the switcher ;)
I mean its just a fried 7812..
And don't we all just love old crappy hardware ;D
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made the adjustments, +12v and -5v are now running through the switcher. measuring around +14v and -4.6v on the edge connector. hooked up the speaker, started the game - NOTHING!!! moz even a buzz / hum :'(. tested it with another speaker - some results :(!
i guess i'll have to take those measures on the board then. the big question remains: how / where do i measure that sound amp?
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As I see, there is nothing connected to this connector on your pcb.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X470XUdWAr8/TphoKt4BtRI/AAAAAAAAEzQ/kb1ktBKTZF0/s640/6240280630_695a8635a1_b.jpg)
Normally, a wire goes there from the cab, you won't have sound without that.
I'm not sure it will help, but some more pics from mine:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yJW9b2zdd8I/TphnmZssKwI/AAAAAAAAEx0/N2VAXkqMNsc/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520005.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5W7iofatWhk/TphnmBOEGrI/AAAAAAAAExw/rMJuH3RNSWE/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520006.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zYfweXrtSwA/Tphnne_LU6I/AAAAAAAAEyA/e72o9_gaVj8/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520007.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kPyq14e4jNw/Tphnnnxa6JI/AAAAAAAAEyE/8KHzHupuz_Q/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520008.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pBWof_aR1Sg/Tphno6wX16I/AAAAAAAAEyk/Mhly0r0lMXA/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520009.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WoXXimacFSQ/TphnpKprOiI/AAAAAAAAEyU/bengG7swnE4/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520010.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-75bPsFMomgU/Tphnpq7hAWI/AAAAAAAAEyg/5R3fB9PHk8w/s800/Frogger%252520sound%252520011.jpg)
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thx bela, but normally there is something connected to the 6-pin connector. it's just that i had it off for testing purposes!
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i guess i'll have to take those measures on the board then. the big question remains: how / where do i measure that sound amp?
I will quote myself ;)
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/frogschema.jpg)
Here you see the chip, and that pin 9 is +12 volts.
Pin 2 & 6 are ground, so measure between pin 2 and 9.
Also you can see in the schematics that pin 4 of the LM471 wants -5Volt...
Oh, and maybe you ask yourself how to "count" the pins of IC's..
Like this : ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/iccount.jpg)
And to be complete, here how you count the pins on the M51516L:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/m51516-sound-amp.jpg)
although its also marked on your board...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6168/6240189471_974455cb2e_b_d.jpg)
next:
thx bela, but normally there is something connected to the 6-pin connector. it's just that i had it off for testing purposes!
That something is the volume pot i think ?
If that is off for testing, it will not give sound according to Punkrock caveman:
let me take you back to page 12 of this threat..
Frogger neccessarily needs a volume pot on the 6-pin connector (labeled 6P) on the upper board to play sound. It is a 200 ohms, when I remember right ;) wire it like this: pin 2 of 6P goes to pin 1 of the pot, pin 4 of 6P goes to pin 2 of the pot and finally pin 6 of 6P goes to pin 3. Then you hear sound ;)
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thx etienne, i will return with the results soon. i had misread your posting before ... shame on me :-\
That something is the volume pot i think ?
If that is off for testing, it will not give sound according to Punkrock caveman:
just took it off for the continuity test, it's always connected when testing the speaker!
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just took it off for the continuity test, it's always connected when testing the speaker!
Just checking my friend ;)
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Just checking my friend ;)
and that's a good thing to do because you never know what supernoobully is doing wrong this time :P
anyway, just got back with the sound amp voltages: +14.13v. i guess that's ok!
now on to that other chip / amp, the one you called LM741. was the chip i pictured a while back the correct one (because it has 741 written on it) or am i looking for a different one?
if i can't figure out the sound issue, perhaps it would be an option to ship my pcb to PRC to have it tested in his cab to find out whether the error is on the board or on the harness / potentiometer ...
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now on to that other chip / amp, the one you called LM741. was the chip i pictured a while back the correct one (because it has 741 written on it) or am i looking for a different one?
Yes sir, thats the one ;)
If you look at the schematics, and look at the board, you see that the board marks are IC1 for the LM741 and IC2 for the M51516L.
In the schematics, you see just above the word "LM741" a number "1" , and in front of the word "M51516L" a number "2"
That indicates IC1 and IC2 in this case 8)
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pin3 is ground?
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Yes, you're starting to learn the schematics ;)
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while waiting for the sound problem to dissolve into thin air, i worked on the coin door! this is what it looked like when i got it (remember: the original one was gone and i had to get a replacement from anthony@quarterarcade) :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6157/6245816903_e3d7588b2c_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6095/6246339628_e9cce426d3_b_d.jpg)
first order of business: remove those coin inserts along with the coin mechs
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6246339796_36508708cc_b_d.jpg)
while the coin insert plates were screwed to the coin door, the coin mechs are bolted to the plates
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6153/6246339938_ae2071f62b_b_d.jpg)
in order to get the coin mechs off, i have to hammer those bolts out
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6164/6246340538_561b998f64_b_d.jpg)
fallen to pieces
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6179/6245817707_2c6eb16fc8_b_d.jpg)
the coin insert plates are nasty and scratched
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6046/6245817923_952c3b43f0_b_d.jpg)
full polish treatment - activated!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6224/6246340048_81496c069d_b_d.jpg)
mirror, mirror, on the wall ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6231/6245818233_da306e2db0_b_d.jpg)
in the meantime, the coin door itself magically returned from the powdercoater :-*
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6095/6246341610_c02a0d4661_b_d.jpg)
the big question was: how do i re-attach those coin insert plates / coin mechs to the coin door. as i've said, they had used screws before for the plates, but i didn't like the looks of those, so i wanted to think of something new instead. the answer came to me when i was cleaning the adjustment plate behind the coin door: pop rivets!!!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6218/6246341502_427646f355_b_d.jpg)
i had bought myself a nice riveting set quite a while ago and now it was time to put this to the test
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6049/6245820073_59eb4cc1fc_b_d.jpg)
everything in position
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6151/6246342026_d67f66c095_b_d.jpg)
riveting pliers and rivets ready
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6170/6246341000_d26f1c1f99_b_d.jpg)
in goes the rivet
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6172/6245818713_fd1425a495_b_d.jpg)
and done! looking food so far
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6115/6246341356_dd83d77632_b_d.jpg)
coin mech attached to the plate, now the plate needs to be attached to the coin door. rivets in place, ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6110/6245818385_b9674a560a_b_d.jpg)
pliers in action, ...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6056/6246341896_d825175930_b_d.jpg)
operation successful!!!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6097/6245819415_68a566e0a5_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6114/6245818873_4ed904bd94_b_d.jpg)
two shots of the finished coin door (with a fresh lock installed as well) - i totally like the way this turned out! :)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6172/6245819767_fee3eec560_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6219/6246342248_362fe69de3_b_d.jpg)
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Looking AWSOME !!! :o
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You do such a good job. Just perfect!
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I heard somewhere that Sega might had a lot of Moon Cresta boards laying around so they slapped a extra board on them and they were Frogger pcbs (Sega only)! If i were you look up Moon Cresta pinouts because Frogger pcbs are pretty much the same board but with an extra board.
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thx, but i do have the frogger pinouts. or are you trying to tell me something i'm not getting because of my "noobness"? ;)
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nice job !
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Impressive. ;)
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Also you can see in the schematics that pin 4 of the LM471 wants -5Volt...
just took the measures: -5.43v!
with that being said, both sound amps are getting the correct voltages, speaker, wiring and potentiometer seem to be working as well. nevertheless, i somehow have the feeling that something is wrong externally, not on the pcb itself ...
any suggestions on what to do next? ask mr caveman to test my board in his cab? buy / build a jamma adapter to test it in a jamma cab?
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You can use the standard konami to jamma adapter for it if you have one of those. ;)
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Try another potentiometer.
Did you test it the way Etienne suggested, measureing ohms instead of beeping through?
http://www.ladyada.net/learn/multimeter/resistance.html
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I love that pic ! , very handy!
(http://www.ladyada.net/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?hash=a2c6a9&w=501&h=785&media=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ladyada.net%2Fimages%2Fmetertutorial%2Frescolorcode.jpg)
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Try another potentiometer.
Did you test it the way Etienne suggested, measureing ohms instead of beeping through?
yes i did and the results are good. nevertheless, i will try another potmeter just to be sure!
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the sound didn't work with another potentiometer either, so i decided to look in a different direction. by pure coincidence, a frogger pcb popped up on ebay germany last week. it was listed as having graphic errors and sound problems. i wrote the seller an email asking about the sound problems and he told me that "sound problems" mean "no sound at all". i could draw two conclusions from this statement:
(a) the sound amp on the pcb is fried
(b) the seller didn't connect the pcb to a potentiometer and without that - as we know by now - there is no sound at all!
i didn't care about the graphic errors, because if the sound board worked i would simply exchange the sound pcbs and be done with it. so i took the gamble, entered my bid and got the pcb pretty cheap :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6101/6283008913_aa47f982bc_b_d.jpg)
bought the pcb on sunday, paid for it immediately and today - when i got home from school - a box was already waiting for me at my doorstep
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6093/6283009335_68bfac17e7_b_d.jpg)
inside, the anxiously awaited (supposedly) half-working frogger pcb
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6108/6283009879_f32509dde4_b_d.jpg)
the first thing i did was swap the pcbs' sound boards. just out of curiosity, i connected the new frogger pcb (with my old sound board) first and guess what: perfect picture - but no sound. not bad for a start, probably just a voltage problem when the seller tested it. ok, now to the real deal: my old frogger pcb with the new sound board ready for the test!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5229/5676583954_30302ec558_t_d.jpg) click on the following picture to see (or better: to hear) what happened :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6219/6283530116_2845ee4266_z_d.jpg) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj0iJc9yepQ)
we've got sound, baby!!! :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
this means i have a fully working frogger pcb now plus a half-working spare frogger pcb with no sound. i guess i should order a replacement sound amp and see if this fixes the sound problem. would be cool to have a fully working spare pcb! now if only that other package from the usa would arrive ...
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The sweetest tunes ever....shame that video was so short, as I was already anticipating in my mind the next tune ! :)
It's also always funny to hear how much a box (or a marquee area) does for a speaker....there's no bass sound at all with a loose speaker, but man but it in a box and.... ;)
Very efficient way to solve it, nice price ! :)
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I also saw this pcb on ebay and I was allmost 100% sure that you bought it.! :D
Nice job, good to hear that cute intro song. ;D
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Huray !
Very smart choice Ully !
nothing beats exchanging parts to locate the problem.
now the challenge to fix the other pcb.. i think the amp is fried, since there is not even a crackling sound.
(one or both the chips could be fried i think..)
I would start with the LM471 because it looks like they already changed the other ...
But more important, you can do that relaxed, without pressure and frustration since you got a working board set now !
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Sweet tune for almost nothing! - and that´s how we like it! ;D
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now the challenge to fix the other pcb.. i think the amp is fried, since there is not even a crackling sound.
(one or both the chips could be fried i think..)
I would start with the LM471 because it looks like they already changed the other ...
what's the best place to buy stuff like that? never had to exchange any chips ...
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this morning i started throwing the electronics back into the cab. first stop, the monitor. it was a pain in the a** to make it fit into that handmade wooden monitor frame, but i succeeded eventually!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6045/6302883350_61425e348a_b_d.jpg)
however, things didn't look as nicely on the back :o :shock:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6112/6302358159_7d2013a680_b_d.jpg)
need i say more? >:(
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6051/6302358679_bf03d265ac_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6118/6302358935_cdc861d974_b_d.jpg)
so i removed the monitor from the cab - again, unscrewed it from the wooden frame, removed the metal frame around the monitor, put the monitor back into the wooden frame and screwed the chassis to the cabinet itself. i wasn't able to center the chassis, because otherwise the anode cap wire would have been too short. nevertheless, i still think it looks pretty nice!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6114/6302356791_346dff430b_b_d.jpg)
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I think originally the chassis is also located there ?
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I think originally the chassis is also located there ?
sometimes, but most of the time (and i think this is how it was originally) it was on the metal frame, but the frame itself was titled so that it would fit inside. it was impossible to do this with my setup, but the result is very satisfying!
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Absolutely, it looks like it was originally there ! :spaceace:
Looking back through your thread, i see that the previous monitor chassis was also not mounted on the frame:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6196/6062128481_5a3815ef1d_b_d.jpg)
But thats not the original monitor that supposed to be in there as well as i recall or was that an original that they used in Gremlins ?
EDIT:
i found this picture on klov and it also has that metal shielding thingy at the monitor..
also i see that the monitor support is different than yours, could it be that yours was selfmade ?
(concidering it was so weak constructed..)
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also i see that the monitor support is different than yours, could it be that yours was selfmade ?
(concidering it was so weak constructed..)
definitely self-constructed. i simply improved it a little bit by adding the metal frame around it so that it can support the weight of the monitor.
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my latest arcade package (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2865.0) from rich@thisoldgame contained - amongst other stuff - two mystery items. time to reveal the first one! here's its back side again :arrow:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6044/6351400532_9f9390360b_b_d.jpg)
let's turn it around
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6114/6350657125_b59c8fd87d_b_d.jpg)
yes, etienne guessed correctly: a set of vinyl tire tracks! you've won a free round of frogger on my machine - congratulations, my friend ;D.
unfortunately, the dimensions are not 100% as i provided them to rich, but i can totally live with the front panel's tire tracks being somewhat smaller than the ones on the control panel. this way, they won't "clash" with the coin door or look somewhat "squeezed in".
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6239/6351402018_59451e32e1_b_d.jpg)
application time
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6104/6351402242_5833eb0314_b_d.jpg)
looking good so far
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6112/6351401438_6d5eb32e4d_b_d.jpg)
careful removal of the protective layer
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6054/6351401654_904c4865e8_b_d.jpg)
this is going to look great :-*
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6229/6351401040_74b7eb36af_b_d.jpg)
the results are in!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6046/6350658753_0db6f3d397_b_d.jpg)
one of the main reasons why i wanted to use white vinyl on the cabinet instead of the woodgrain stuff was the idea with the tire tracks. imho it wouldn't have looked as nicely as it does now if i had put those tracks on the dark brown woodgrain vinyl!
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6036/6350689245_3697439ffa_d.jpg)
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Nice :) What I never noticed, but did now, is that that track pattern is completely nonsense. I don't think a real tyre would ever have a pattern like that.
But hey....it's only show........however, you could mount a big wheel with tire as a topper over this track ;)
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It looks cool :spaceace:
[Anal mode on]
But not only is the track more narrow, its pattern is also different..
[/Anal mode off]
well lets just say that it was another car that run over the control panel ;D
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i need a qucik advice, guys, regarding the coin door :arrow:
would you paint the bolts which hold the frame in place black to blend in with the frame or would you leave the bolts in their original shiny chrome color as a nice match with the chrome coin mech parts on the center?
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6094/6359043699_742fd99aac_b_d.jpg)
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I would say leave them shiny,
The original looks unpainted too:
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/389735078_d3c0332627.jpg)
Although they are a bit rusty in this pic ;D
if you decide to make them black, also paint the rivets on the plates then ;)
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Chrome!
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original shiny chrome 8)
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Yes, go for the chrome! First: less work (I am not sure if thats a good or a bad thing for you :)) second: It is original, third: Bling Bling! :D
Really nice work until now. Can't wait to see this unloved black sheep of cab that you found come to it's former glory!
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continuing with interior finishing details (that's the stuff which uses up a lot of time) i turn to the "ground wires". sega / gremlin used something different here: instead of a normal ground wire, they uses some kind of copper band to ground the cab!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7165/6452663585_979d4b179f_b_d.jpg)
unfortunately, only parts of that copper band had survived the conversion from hell :evil:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6452658867_3bd99178f3_b_d.jpg)
i want to go with the original system, so after some searching i found what i was looking for: a roll of self-adhesive copper band (no need to staple it to the cabinet)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7146/6452664067_3a8e0ae2bf_b_d.jpg)
but where exactly does the copper band have to go and how does it run through the cabinet ??? ? good thing that i have another sega / gremlin cab in storage (carnival), so let's head over and check it out!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7029/6452662641_f3e314a643_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6452661557_d92619098d_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7155/6452660959_e5b0cd0bdc_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6452664649_2834dd49ac_b_d.jpg)
found the info i needed: control panel, coin door, monitor and backdoor interlock switch (not pictured) - here we go ...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7030/6452661895_e787d60b56_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7018/6452660297_d278b49da3_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6452659459_01e2fb66a2_b_d.jpg)
turned out great, don't you think? :spaceace:
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Sure thing !
Looks like the original
I also have a roll of that stuff in my toolbox.
Very handy to have that stuff sometimes
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I just hope it actually conducts electricity well enough ? Did you measure Ully ?
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I just hope it actually conducts electricity well enough ? Did you measure Ully ?
nope, how can i measure it? beep beep?
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If its the same stuff as i have here, its pure copper with some adhesive on it. (it looks like the same stuff)
We used this to make shielding in some places where needed.
I think it does conduct very well, since its pure copper.
Measure Ohm's Ully ;)
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almost done with frogger, here's the latest progress :arrow:
first, i applied the ultimate solution sticker (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2600.0) to the back of the coin door in case the game ever decides to fail :P
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6521533031_fe8ebf012b_b_d.jpg)
screwed the speaker and the lighting fixture to the marquee board
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7173/6521533491_b0c6291c8d_b_d.jpg)
installed the marquee board into the cabinet, turned on the game and realized that the light from the lighting fixture not only illuminates the marquee itself, but also shines down "into" the cabinet which disturbs a lot during gameplay! :evil:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7157/6521537251_a513790bce_b_d.jpg)
you can also see the discoloration of the monitor in the upper right corner (and to a much lesser degree in the middle on the left). i've already tried a degaussing coil, but without success :(
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6521534757_ea5375a583_b_d.jpg)
does anyone know what causes this problem and how it can be fixed? could a simple cap kit do the trick?
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6521536223_6df62bd356_b_d.jpg)
back to the "inner lighting problem": i did some digging on the internet and found the following :arrow:
"there was originally a cardboard piece that was stapled to the back of the shelf to keep this from happening. that "divider/reflector" not only kept the light off the monitor, but also reflected light to the marquee. time and moisture often made them curve."
found a picture as well :arrow:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7164/6521537915_f553cdfa7a_b_d.jpg)
so i took a piece of cardboard and re-created that divider / reflector (it's fixed to the marquee board with Velcro fastener :arrow: see those black stripes)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6521537713_bc98d4ffa5_b_d.jpg)
fixed behind the lighting fixture
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7002/6521536625_f527f63e34_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7010/6521533855_c1c3ca7057_b_d.jpg)
the result is very convincing! :spaceace:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6521535183_02647d44b5_b_d.jpg)
i've done as much as i can do to this cabinet, so let's remove the protective layer on the sideart :)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6521612819_4ca871786b_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7164/6521613265_cf0e3d3ea1_b_d.jpg)
that frog looks as if it's in physical pain :twisted:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7149/6521613719_f1d002a8c9_b_d.jpg)
in case you forgot who made that fabulous game / cabinet
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6521612507_df3c0d1ab3_b_d.jpg)
i'll be taking the long awaited money shots over the next few days but first i'll have to install a topper and then move the game into the ©elektro-cade™
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Did you try degaussing the metal frame (if any) around the monitor (from the back, can e done while off).
If not try that and if it doesnt work you have a problem.
Then its either a bad purity adjustment (which requires moving the yoke) or the tube is dead.....
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Did you try degaussing the metal frame (if any) around the monitor (from the back, can e done while off).
If not try that and if it doesnt work you have a problem.
the monitor doesn't have a metal frame! should i try it from the back nevertheless?
Then its either a bad purity adjustment (which requires moving the yoke) or the tube is dead.....
as long as it doesn't destroy the monitor i can totally live with it (because luckily it's only hte upper right corner). the picture is also slightly distorted in that section, so can it be a cap problem?
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as long as it doesn't destroy the monitor i can totally live with it (because luckily it's only hte upper right corner). the picture is also slightly distorted in that section, so can it be a cap problem?
And the center left ;)
i dont think its caps, but if you got that cool device that andre and bela have you can check them ofcourse and replace the bad ones
or just cap it anyway, see if it helps, caps are cheap.
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No thats something caps wont fix, and youre right etienne, its also on the center left side....
Please check the following
Is the yoke not loose on the neck?
How are the purity and convergence rings ? Are they glued and not "loose" ?
If you are brave enough you could try to adjust the purity ring, but that could mess up the convergence. You can draw a straight line over all the rings with a permanent marker so you can always return to the original position. You do have to untighten the clamp behind the rings first vefore trying to move them !!!
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this is it, guys! although it took much longer than expected (doesn't it always?), i'm proud to announce the end of this restoration (apart from some tiny missing puzzle pieces like alu stickers)!
time for the money shots!!!
originally, this cabinet was a rotten conversion from hell which the "seller" (i got it for it for free) wanted to throw away. but for some stupid reason i accepted the challenge and converted it back - from this ...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5108/5888529616_948d85d231_b_d.jpg)
... to that!!! :arrow:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7019/6530711945_9eebf1b798_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7030/6530711393_ab8579f543_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7013/6530712691_19f08252b4_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7151/6530711649_f3a1cd4446_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6530712247_8440df1ff7_b_d.jpg)
the offical board game as a cabinet topper (i just l-o-v-e individual toppers!)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7153/6530713143_07fa95efa1_b_d.jpg)
the wonderful reproduction marquee from arcadshop.com
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7156/6530709365_6e75ed0826_b_d.jpg)
the control panels has gone from this ...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5184/5888532470_c4d1cd7596_b_d.jpg)
... to that :arrow:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7148/6530710487_e7482e0a9a_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7154/6530710921_1710c9fd46_b_d.jpg)
i also cleaned up the inside a bit because it was an incredible mess!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5192/5888531220_ac2406e6aa_b_d.jpg)
not anymore! 8)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7153/6530714065_8f9ed9490b_b_d.jpg)
the coin door was not original (in fact, the only original thing still left was the wooden cabinet itself)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5031/5888529190_a25b83ab55_b_d.jpg)
that's why it got replaced!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7158/6530713507_d71244bd47_b_d.jpg)
finally, i found a nice key ring for the coin door :-*
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7161/6530709903_c8389e0c73_b_d.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7018/6530709595_133db85a0b_b_d.jpg)
as always, thanks to everyone around here for all your great comments, your input and help - i wouldn't have been able to do this alone and it wouldn't have been as much fun as it was without you guys!!!
THIS RESTORATION IS OFFICIALLY DONE!!! :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
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oh, one more thing (perhaps you have notived it as well): the difference size of the track marks between the control panel and the cabinet front is worse than i expected, in fact it almost drives me crazy :P. i think i might have to re-do that with a wider version at some point in the future, for now i'll leave it like that ...
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Another classic was reborn from the dumpster, incredible job Ully.I guess you are the only one in the world, who had the courage to start this resto. :D
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i am already looking forward to this pic : ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/ullytreatment.jpg)
I was not far off with my prediction !
Amazing work Ully !
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Wooowww love it :-* :-* :-*
Congratulations Ully - superb restoration :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
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thx guys, it's been sitting here in my gameroom and i just can't help but look at it :D
@max: haven't seen any scratch-built projects in a while - whats up? :P
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Gee......I hardly see any difference ! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Brilliant superb wonderful excellent job as always, but take off that silly board-game box....it completely ruins your brilliant work...doesn't belong there....
(Just MHO of course, as always brought in the nicest and must subtle way I can..... ;D ;D)
By the way:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7018/6530709595_133db85a0b_b_d.jpg)
Man....that poor frog must have some headache, that's some serious piercing there ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Exellent work man! :pac: :pac: :pac:
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take off that silly board-game box....it completely ruins your brilliant work...doesn't belong there....
(Just MHO of course, as always brought in the nicest and must subtle way I can..... ;D ;D)
what were you saying? ;D
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@max: haven't seen any scratch-built projects in a while - whats up? :P
I've no time right now >:( and space (ok ok this is an excuse ;D :-\) I've all the pieces for the next project ... I hope to start it in spring ...
these beautiful restorations will help me to keep alive the cabs desire :spaceace: thanks Ully and ... your next resto?
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these beautiful restorations will help me to keep alive the cabs desire :spaceace: thanks Ully and ... your next resto?
thx max! i'll try to finish jungle king in the christmas holidays, will put the gran trak 10 back together (more on that later) and return to rally as well. additionally, my next resto project is going to be zoo keeper!
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additionally, my next resto project is going to be zoo keeper!
yes zoo keeper good choice!!! I will follow the resto with great interest .
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Wow awesome work Ully! Now I want to see a new Frogger Highscore Post from you the next days :D
That was really a tough job and you proved to us that nearly every cab can be saved and brought back to its former glory, enough love and dedication provided!
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Great resto ully! - though..... i like the original woodgrain sides more than these white ones....
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Congratulations Ully,
you Frogger's cab has passed the american test:
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=214778
a lot of compliments!!! :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
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Congratulations Ully,
you Frogger's cab has passed the american test:
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=214778
a lot of compliments!!! :spaceace: :spaceace: :spaceace:
No wonder because most US guys would probably have ditched a cab in that condition (or thrown of the roof...).
Thr more I look at it, the more I agree with the white sides.....Ive always hate woodgrain anyway....;)
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Just brought me a frogger from Netherlands (should arrive soon) so started looking at restores
this is one awesome restore, but has opened more questions for me than answers
Thanks for posting this
BTW: this cab you restored was actually originally a Frankencab Moon Cresta not a Frankencab Frogger
but great to see it made into a Frogger cab
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All SuperUlly restores are EPIC IMHO.
LOve to read them, lots of detailled info in them :)
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All SuperUlly restores are EPIC IMHO.
LOve to read them, lots of detailled info in them :)
+1!
Though his restores made me stop doing my own restores...this level of restoration cannot be reached by me....so I focus on having the games running ;)