Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: Belike on June 08, 2011, 08:30:16 AM
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I need some monitor related input again. ;D
I have some monitors with a darker or much whiter lower area of the screen.
I swapped the chassis in these from my other cabs, the tube is ok, working fine with the replacement.
Is it a capkit or flyback problem?
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my guess is not flyback, since you got image..
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Got some pics/video Bela ?
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Here we go:
Cab no.1, Scramble:
There is a 3 cm high dark area in the bottom of the screen, where the fuel level is.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0QUgwq_usiQ/Te-TB6ZrCWI/AAAAAAAADvo/DnLWkFE4sjA/s800/Monitor%252520issues%252520001.jpg)
Cab no.2, Phoenix:
There is a 5 cm high white area in the bottom of the screen and vertical white strips.
The strips disappear after 5 minutes without any further adjustments.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VbnU6hpm6dg/Te-TLZV5xBI/AAAAAAAADwE/nE6aYlh4HWc/s800/Monitor%252520issues%252520003.jpg)
Cab no.3. Phoenix in a Starsplash cab with Etienne's marquee. ;D
The lower third of the screen is much whiter (or lighter) than the upper part and there is a same kind of area in the top 2cm of the screen.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0Do2Et25p1M/Te-TLW3VgVI/AAAAAAAADwA/ERSmvo2CEq0/s800/Monitor%252520issues%252520005.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ghx_36IgaRs/Te-TB21avlI/AAAAAAAADvk/OEtITX-4FYc/s800/Monitor%252520issues%252520006.jpg)
I will invite the winner for some beers and Jack Daniel's on the rocks at Eurocade. ;D ;D ;D
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And I almost forgot, that the first Phoenix's screen is also shaking a bit. ???
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degaussing?
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degaussing?
I tried it with my top quality german product, but it didn't help. :-\
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1vyVJ3OnA0I/TXUdOZJ5gyI/AAAAAAAADDs/XSfJhTDWuIE/s800/Degaussing%252520wand%252520001.jpg)
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Shaking is almost always an indication of bad caps.
Let me guess, all of them are Hantarex monitors ?
I'm not an expert on rasters...but cap-kits could do a lot of good on these... and now I understand why you want to know my ESR meter results.... ;)
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Shacking is almost always an indication of bad caps.
Let me guess, all of them are Hantarex monitors ?
I'm not an expert on rasters...but cap-kits could do a lot of good on these... and now I understand why you want to know my ESR meter results.... ;)
Yeah, I'm planning to replace my first capkit, I will have a good use of that equipment. ;)
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I need some monitor related input again. ;D
I have some monitors with a darker or much whiter lower area of the screen.
I swapped the chassis in these from my other cabs, the tube is ok, working fine with the replacement.
Is it a capkit or flyback problem?
More than likely bad electrolytic capacitors.
Here's something that may be helpful:
List of Bad Monitor Capacitors and Symptoms
Electrohome GO7
C511 47uf 160VDC Causes activation of X-ray protection which in turn
causes shutdown of horizontal oscillator. Monitor appears dead. Power
supply voltage rises to approx 160 VDC. May also cause weird black areas
to appear on the right side or top of the screen.
C905 10uf 250VDC May cause jittery picture.
C107 10uf 250VDC (on neck board) Cannot darken screen completely with
screen control.
C504 1uf 50VDC Wiggly picture; especially toward the top of the screen.
Looks as if you should be able to adjust it out with the horizontal
frequency control but you can't.
C517 100uf 16VDC Picture keystoned. Sides not straight.
C518 220uf 16VDC Picture keystoned. Sides not straight.
C411 100uf 160VDC Poor vertical deflection.
Hantarex MTC900
C25 47uf 16vdc Jailbars
C36 22uf 35VDC Jailbars
C83 47uf 25VDC Jailbars
Hantarex MTC9000
C34 22uf 160VDC May cause shutdown of monitor. May cause interference
bands on screen. Common failure starting now!
Wells-Gardner K4600
C614 33uf 25vdc Keystoned picture. Sides not straight.
C311 1000uf 35VDC Poor vertical deflection (picture doesn't fill
screen)
Wells-Gardner K4900
C702 10uf 100VDC Picture bright on the right side and dark on the left
side.
C313 100uf 160VDC Poor vertical deflection (picture doesn't fill
screen)
C507 47uf 160VDC May cause interference bands on screen.
Nintendo (Sanyo Model 20-EZV)
C407 10uf 160VDC Causes vertical foldover. The top part of the
screen is squished.
C302 1uf 50VDC Jail bars
C467 1uf 160VDC Jail bars
C468 330uf 25VDC Jail bars
C469 220uf 25VDC Jail bars
C471 10uf 160VDC Jail bars
C472 100uf 160VDC Jail bars
C459 100uf 16VDC. Horizontal tearing. Looks as if you should be able to
adjust it out with the horizontal hold control but you can't. May cause
multiple images.
C303 10uf 50VDC Brightness too low.
Matsushita (Pole Position)
C455 100uf 100VDC Poor vertical deflection.
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Source: RANDY FROMM
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Nice list !
You can add:
Nintendo (Sanyo Model 20C) = Atari 14" Sanyo
C406 Causes vertical foldover. The top part of the screen is squished.
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Thanks for your help, let's see if I can replace a cap without any problems. ;D
As I don't have a desoldering station just a crap pump, I think I will use this method ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieoM_40nRVs
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Or do you have any experience with this?
http://www.startecproducts.de/pdf/90200GB.pdf
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KsuYtCUtffU/TfBX1rPdtuI/AAAAAAAADxk/ChFddNFtv50/90200.jpg)
It's a simple vacuum station, could be connected to any kind of soldering stations.
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I like the comment at the video ;D
But don't disturb the joint until it's COMPLETELY cool, or the Popular Mechanics guy from the 'How to Solder' video will come and tear you a new asshole!
I dont have experience with a separate vaccuum station, but i do have a official desolder station.
from what i can judge its exactly the same function, and if you need to desolder alot, (complete capkits can be alot) and its not too expensive this is money well spend.
I would prefer that alot above wick..
just buy also a simple solder iron that you can use with that station, and you dont need to switch every time with your regular iron.
wonder what the costs are for that vaccuum station ...
if you take a separate iron for it, dont take a 25 watts for that but rather a little higher so there will be enough heat in the tip.. ;)
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Thanks for your help, let's see if I can replace a cap without any problems. ;D
As I don't have a desoldering station just a crap pump, I think I will use this method ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieoM_40nRVs
1) Lousy soldering iron. 25W is simply not enough. It will force you to heat parts for very long which can lead to damage of tracks and parts. It works kinda OK here because it's only a tiny resistor, I wouldn't want to do bigger parts like HVT's with it..
2) He doesn't (and hasn't) pre-tinned his soldering tip. BEFORE starting to solder, put a little new tin on the tip, then wipe it off with a moist (not WHET) sponge. Even better is "flicking off" the excess tin, but that's only for the pro's ;D
3) ....and this is my MOST ignored tip....ADD a little NEW solder if the solderings are very old before trying to get the old solder/part out !!!
The old solder doesn't have any flux in it anymore so it can take AGES before the old solder starts running. Adding a tiny bit of new solder will make it run almost instantly. Only THEN try to get out all of the solder using a hand pump or desoldering braid.
4) the PCB shakes like hell after he removes the iron when soldering in the new part. The solder has to be absolutly still for a second or 2 to settle nicely....this is bad soldering. FIX the PCB or at least make sure it doesn't move like that when working on it...
I figure I should just make my own video..... :D
I don't own a desoldering station, and I've never really missed it that much, I've always managed with braid and pump. Sure, it's great to have one around if you do a lot of work but it's not absolutely necessary.
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Nice video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCSNWi3UHf4&feature=related
...only sad that he shows Jamicon caps all the time....they suck !
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I figure I should just make my own video..... :D
actually not a bad idea, can i be your co-host ? ;D
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I figure I should just make my own video..... :D
actually not a bad idea, can i be your co-host ? ;D
Would love to see that, please, please record that soldering/desoldering tutorial video!!!
You could even act it Statler and Waldorf style ;)
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Hey, we're old, but not THAT old.....
I was more thinking of Swedish Chef style .......zis iz ze solery....and ziss iz ze iron.....
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Deal!
To get you to record that video, I'd even agree to feature in it as Kermit.
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+1!
bring on that green suit ! ;D
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060328233218/muppet/images/archive/2/24/20101102142823!Waldorf_and_Statler_2.JPG)
Swedish chef (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXfHyDCcTGQ&feature=related) also brilliant !
here the music for under the video Andre:
www.opdenkelder.com/pics/swedishchef.mp3 (http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/swedishchef.mp3)
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Oh, wow, just found a new Swedish Chef....in HD !!!!
(ignore the "funny" captions)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7UmUX68KtE&feature=related
[Edit].....we SO derailed this thread.....sorry Béla !
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Yes, weird picture distortions like that are likely cap related. Go for a capkit first and see what's left to fix.
De-soldering for 2-pin caps I usually melt & remove each side of the cap first and then desolder/clean the holes & pads. May need a bit of heat as on monitors the pads tend to be large.
Let us know how it goes - be great to see a before and after for the project :)
Paul.
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I just checked the monitor in my Puckman (a Hantarex 900) and it has the same issues like yours Béla.
Guess it needs caps .... :D
By the way, an excellent moment to promote this wonderful document by Speleo_DE a.k.a. Andreas :)
http://www.andysarcade.de/data/coinop/videogames/monitor_cap_kits/capkit_hantarex_900_v1.pdf
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Pretty sure my 900E/USA in the Jackrabbit needs more than a cap kit...
http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos/SAM_9014w.JPG (http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos/SAM_9014w.JPG)
...or...
http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos/SAM_9015w.JPG (http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos/SAM_9015w.JPG)
...poo. :(
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I just checked the monitor in my Puckman (a Hantarex 900) and it has the same issues like yours Béla.
Guess it needs caps .... :D
By the way, an excellent moment to promote this wonderful document by Speleo_DE a.k.a. Andreas :)
http://www.andysarcade.de/data/coinop/videogames/monitor_cap_kits/capkit_hantarex_900_v1.pdf
did you also check with your meter which one(s) where bad ?
that could save bela some time on his first capkit ;)
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Heheh, of course that is exactly my plan...now working on getting the CP done though...
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I just checked the monitor in my Puckman (a Hantarex 900) and it has the same issues like yours Béla.
Guess it needs caps .... :D
By the way, an excellent moment to promote this wonderful document by Speleo_DE a.k.a. Andreas :)
http://www.andysarcade.de/data/coinop/videogames/monitor_cap_kits/capkit_hantarex_900_v1.pdf
Thanks for the chart André, I've already bought a nice stock from caps, but seems like I missed some types ;D
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Iv8ZgODiKsc/TfZrHdaCwiI/AAAAAAAADyA/RZHq17qGu1E/s800/Caps.jpg)
I wish I could have one of those meters. :-\
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Pretty sure my 900E/USA in the Jackrabbit needs more than a cap kit...
http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos/SAM_9014w.JPG (http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos/SAM_9014w.JPG)
...or...
http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos/SAM_9015w.JPG (http://www.zzzaccaria.com/photos/SAM_9015w.JPG)
...poo. :(
Wow, nice flyback, perfect for a New Years Eve fireworks. :o
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Well, I think it will take at least a good number of new caps on this one (mine)....
It's been running for a while now and I saw following problems:
1) Top is light, it gets darker to the bottom (the monitor is in vertical position)
2) there seems to be some "ghosting"
3) now and then the picture shakes a bit
4) colors are a bit weird
I know that it has the following physical problems:
1) The HV cup is in bad condition (aren't all the see-through one's ?). They tried to fix it, but I can hear some HV going on under it ;) I've received a new cab with cables from a UK guy in the past, I will install that
2) the neckboard doesn't stay on. There's a piece of cardboard keeping it in place right now :S ;)
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Small update:
I used this great stuff on Cab.no.2 Phoenix's tube twice and after some nice fireworks in the neck, the screen became much better:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8PK2XOZoqpE/TfkCJqPt50I/AAAAAAAAD1M/1yj-sfYFqGY/s800/Rejuvenator.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e7LdH6Yp88A/TfkCU77QmjI/AAAAAAAAD1Y/jb3YvS1tSAk/s800/Phoenix%252520monitor%252520002.jpg)
I also investigated that screen shaking, replaced the chassis and the psu from a similar working Zaccaria cab, but nothing changed. ???
Hmmm, what else can it be?
My old friend's first thought was also psu and he was not too far, because it was caused buy this good old fan
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wLG59AuiEto/TfkCJnRNVcI/AAAAAAAAD1I/w9iZhh00jo0/s800/Zaccaria%252520fan.jpg)
I disconnected it and there is no shaking anymore. ;D
The vertical strips are still there for about 2 minutes after switching on, so I will surely have to replace some caps.
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cool, you're getting better by the minute, bela. obviously it's worthwhile having a guy around who knows his business and who can teach you stuff!
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obviously it's worthwhile having a guy around who knows his business and who can teach you stuff!
That's right, I should be a collector with about 20 non-working cabs without my old friend. ;)
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My old friend's first thought was also psu and he was not too far, because it was caused buy this good old fan
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wLG59AuiEto/TfkCJnRNVcI/AAAAAAAAD1I/w9iZhh00jo0/s800/Zaccaria%252520fan.jpg)
I disconnected it and there is no shaking anymore. ;D
Thanks for that tip, i am going to try that too in my CK, it has shaky picture too (well more whobbeling) but it looks like the rythm of the 50 hz AC from the 220v of the fan, so i guess i have the same problem.
its worth a try, and it defenetly makes the cab more quiet ;)
that fan is noisy as hell :twisted:
that sucker looks like they took it straight out of a refrigerator ;D
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fan.jpg)
but do place another fan over that big heatsink, the 7805 is cooking that without the fan.. (and maybe a smallone on the other two heatsinks)
(it was disconnected in the cab from the raiders of the lost zacc (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2309.0) pickup, and it was extremely hot....
and you know what extremely hot means.. NOT good ! 8)
Or replace it with a switcher...
nah, better not, we like original old hardware here ;D
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Thanks for your advises Etienne, I will try to clean and repair that original fan first, I hope it will solve the problem. ;)
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mostlikely will cleaning not solve that issue since i think its interference from the 220volt line..
you can however try to "move" the cable to another location to see if it makes difference..
i remember the cab from gyruss (donkey kong) gave strange image, and that turned out to be the stepdownconverter that was "too close to the cab" / "in the wrong area", which caused interference on the screen, we moved it a bit and the screen was perfect
EDIT:
If i got the same issue (and fix by disconnecting the fan) i might try to put this between the mains and the fan:
(http://media.digikey.com/photos/Schurter%20Photos/5120.0000.0.jpg)
If it works, i have a few of those here lying around that i can bring to eurocade ;)
reminder to myself: create a "shoppinglist" of items to bring to eurocade for variouse people ;D
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The shaking is caused by the magnetic field from the fan (which is simply an electrical motor of course.) It looks like the "box" around it is all metal ?
If so check if it is still connected to ground by a wire. That metal box acts as a Faraday cage. A cage like that keeps all the electro-magnetic fields inside.
However, if the grounding is gone or bad it won't work anymore...
You also seriously need to clean that grill because it blocks the air-flow quite a bit...might be worth looking for a proper fan-guard or a wire mesh with bigger holes...it is SO much covering...
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Thanks for that tip about the fan :wink:
My Kong Junior cab is now also fixed from the shake picture :D
Thanks !
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have not thought of that andre, good tip too!
The fancage is total metal in the zacc's
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Maybe we can check this theory with putting some kind of material between the fan and the pcb, that blocks the magnetic field.
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Maybe we can check this theory with putting some kind of material between the fan and the pcb, that blocks the magnetic field.
No. Because the trick is
1) the box shape. It has to be encapsulated totally (bottom side open is OK)
2) it needs to be grounded for it to work right.
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nice, but there is no back on this cage, the opposite side of the grill is totally open...
dont know if that is a big deal since that is pointing to the wood of the cab, and not to the PCB, so it might just wave in that direction then..
here a pic from the manual:
(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/fancage.jpg)
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Doesn't look like a problem to me.
The magnetic fields is probably not causing much troubles for the (game) PCB, but for the monitor itself.
The magnetic fields influence that of the yoke on the CRT. Those should be "kept apart".
Man, that's a weird fan by the way !!!!
It looks like it has a separate motor (on the lower side) that is mechanically coupled to the fan itself. You might have better results with a more modern axial fan (modern fans have the fan itself as the rotor of the motor). Note that it is indicated at 115V AC (pretty weird for a Euro cab).
By the way, pretty bad design they needed a fan for that power supply....Normally I am 100% for originality, but if fans can be avoided.....(who likes the noise ?). You could think about installing a modern switching power supply. That way you can forget about the fan.....
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its on the same line as the monitor as far as i remember, which also needs 110 volts..
maybe thats the problem ? ;D
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Well, it has always been on the same lines...so that can hardly be the problem UNLESS there is something like a filter capacitor across the motor of the fan that has gone bad...or the motor itself...
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i was in my mothers house today, and i confirm that the shaky picture is caused by the fan.
i disconnected it to test, and a perfect picture was there.
no more shaking...
i think i will leave it disconnected instide, but place a new fan over the psu..
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It would be nice to figure out what went wrong in these fans, because they originally did not cause tremors, I have some cabs with working original ones and the pic does not shake.
I will try to investigate this. ;)
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i did not check the grounding that andre was speaking about :oops:
but it sounds plausible that that is the cause..
I did re-route the signalcable from the board to the monitor to check if the interference was caused there, but it was not..
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@Belike, look if there is some capacitor on the fan. That may have gone bad, but I doubt there is one.
Again, the grounding is essential, without grounding the metal shield, you may as well just remove the shield.
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@Belike, look if there is some capacitor on the fan. That may have gone bad, but I doubt there is one.
Again, the grounding is essential, without grounding the metal shield, you may as well just remove the shield.
Thanks André, I will investigate that asap. ;)
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I was dissasembling my CK for transport to eurocade and as i was disconnecting the powerplug i discovered that my cab was connected to a non grounded outlet :oops:
lets see if the image also whobbles at eurocade where it will be grounded..
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Hey, we're old, but not THAT old.....
I was more thinking of Swedish Chef style .......zis iz ze solery....and ziss iz ze iron.....
taking it back off topic again...
Swedish chef translator (http://www.tiffman.com/bork.cgi)
thees is zee sulder, und thees is zee irun. ;D