Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: Superully on December 21, 2010, 04:31:11 PM
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i need to order some capacitors for a monitor repair (no cap kit available) and i'm somewhat lost in all the variety:
here are the search results (http://de.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Ns=stockPolicy_de%7c1%7c%7cnew_de%7c1&Ne=4294920230&Nr=AND%28avl%3ade%2csearchDiscon_de%3aN%29&N=4294417928+4294417669+4294906941+4294515615+4294915019&binCount=6306&multiselectParam=4294417928 4294417669&selectSubRange=Radial 105 °C#breadCrumb) for "Radial 105 °C220μF 10V DC" on rs online
i'm totally lost here - which ones should i order (panasonic?, how many mA, how many μA)? is radial 105 ok?
some input from the tech guys would be great!!! thx a lot :-*
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Just buy the cheapest 105° one which you don't have to buy 50 of at a time, ignore other specs than capacitance and voltage.
I've never had a problem with their lower-end stuff. If you want to be really safe, grab the cheapest brand name.
If your spec sheet says 10v though, grab something a little higher, like 16 (never lower).
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EDIT:
liquidx was just posting his reply while i was typing, ill post it anyway :D
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Here something for the wiki 8)
that depends of your situation..
Radial has the connection in one side and axial one on each side:
(http://gaussmarkov.net/parts/capacitors/10uF_50V_Radial_Electrolytic_Capacitor.gif) (http://www.zonkas-cap.com.tw/rimages/686/GPA-electrolytic-capacitor.jpg)
manytimes on PCB they use radial, but sometimes axial.
I think you are reffering to radial, since that is in your query..
anyway, they are the same, its just the housing.
sometimes i use axial caps and bend one leg to the other side with some shrinktube
for example if the desired value does only exist in axial version at your supplier.
thats not the most elegant way, but it works..
(did that with gyruss monitor :oops:)
then its just a matter of the correct uf value, this needs to be the same.
Voltage on the other hand can be higher than the original value, for example a 16V cap can be used without problems if the original was 10V
REMEMBER, NOT THE OTHERWAY AROUND! so always go higher or the same voltage, then you won't have problems for that.
there are 85 degree caps and 105 degree caps, and even more higher temperatures, i like 105 degree caps especially in "hotter" areas.
and the last tip i can give is; WATCH the POLARITY ! so look how the cap is mounted before you remove it.
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Useful topic, feels like some kind of arcade school. ;D
Thanks for the teachers, it will be useful for noobs like me (and Ully). ;D
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And me! ;D ;D
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If your spec sheet says 10v though, grab something a little higher, like 16 (never lower).
is that necessary? why not the exact same value?
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is that necessary? why not the exact same value?
It's not necessary, it's just a safety margin.
The voltage rating is how much voltage the capacitor can withstand; not the voltage across the circuit.
So if you have a 10v capacitor and you put a 16v one in, it'll work just fine, but it will be able to withstand a surge a little better than the original.
Take the analogy of water recipients. Say, you normally fill them with 5L of water, one has a 10L capacity, the other has a 16L capacity. Suddenly there's an increase in water flow and they start filling up more than usual. The smaller one will overflow before the bigger one.
Manufacturers tend to keep tolerance as close as possible to reduce costs, sometimes even too close (I have 2 netgear ethernet switches that blew recently because of that), so by putting in a higher value, you just make things a little more "solid". Also, the higher the voltage, the bigger the capacitor, so it could also have been a space problem back in the day, but they're all much smaller now anyway.
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understood! but the μF value has to be the same?
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understood! but the μF value has to be the same?
ALWAYS !
remember bruno's popeye issue (https://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=2157.msg26171#msg26171)...
we really need a wiki here.... ;) there are so many usefull tips/facts from everybody in different specialities here...
would be great to put them all together..
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OK ding-dong, here comes mr. knows-it-better.
Cap value actually doesn't always need to be exactly the same BUT, and it's a big BUT (Miss Piggy's ?): you need to know what you are doing !
So.......for instance.....if a cap is used as a filter cap in a power supply, there is no problem if you use a HIGHER value capacity.
But again, in many OTHER applications (like "deeper" in monitor circuits) caps can be used in a (much) different way and the value can be very critical.
NEVER go lower on capacity and NEVER go lower on voltage, that is a golden rule.
Higher voltage is NEVER a problem (it just costs (a bit) more and the cap gets bigger physically).
In general, axial caps are more expensive than radial one's AND they are much harder to get nowadays.
In a lot of cases it's possible to use a radial cab in the place of an axial. It's not a beautiful sight though...
I personally always get a well-known brand like Nichicon or Panasonic.
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another question: a manual lists a capacitor as follows: 6.8 (NP) 25V - what does the NP stand for?
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Non Polarized.
This means that this is an electrolytic cab that does not have a + or - side.
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Non Polarized. This means that this is an electrolytic cab that does not have a + or - side.
great, thx andré, something new learned today. so this means it doesn't matter which orientation the capacitor is put in, right? do i have to order them separately or can i take a normal cap and simply not care about the +/- ?
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nope you cannot
you need to order thisone seperately
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nope you cannot
you need to order thisone seperately
thx etienne! but where do i find them on rs online? can you point me to the correct caps with the above-mentioned specs?
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will try to do a search for you , i guess 6.8 you write are μf ?
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will try to do a search for you , i guess 6.8 you write are μf ?
yepp, 6.8μf. btw, what does that μf stand for?
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will try to do a search for you , i guess 6.8 you write are μf ?
yepp, 6.8μf. btw, what does that μf stand for?
A microfarad, so a thousandth of a farad which is a measure of capacitance.
Farads are big-ass things, so measures are mostly in fractions of them, microfarads, nanofarads, picofarads :)
They're named after Michael Faraday but in honour of the guy, he didn't discover/name them.
He was pretty busy though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday
And that concludes today's history lesson :)
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µf means microfarad
To understand a bit more about caps, you could read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondensator_%28Elektrotechnik%29
Most of that is too technical for me as well (especially all those formulas), but it gives you a bit more information about what exactly a capacitor is and does. I started reading in those articles a while ago when I built a few guitar effects pedals from DIY kits, and I wanted to know what all those little thingies actually did with the signal.
Here's more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance
Good luck with the whole cap-changing job!
edit: and what liquidx said ;D
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And that concludes today's history lesson :)
thx 8)! that's the thing with the car, the cage and lightning, right?
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OK ding-dong, here comes mr. knows-it-better.
Cap value actually doesn't always need to be exactly the same BUT, and it's a big BUT (Miss Piggy's ?): you need to know what you are doing !
So.......for instance.....if a cap is used as a filter cap in a power supply, there is no problem if you use a HIGHER value capacity.
just to make sure i'm not ordering wrong parts: you can always always always use higher voltages. it doesn't matter whether i use 25V or 250V instead of 16V - or should the replacement voltage value be close to the original one if i can't find the exact value?
AND you can't do anything wrong when you're using higher voltages even if the original ones are available?
BUT the capacity has to match on most occasions with a few exceptions ...
RIGHT :twisted: or WRONG :evil:?
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Correct sir ! :P
you can always go up, never down on the voltage
if you need for example a 16V cap and you mount a 1000V , no problem for the value
it will be bigger so it could be that it will not fit on the board ;D
I mean try to mount this cap (http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/120000uf.jpg)
in this position :(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/rallymonitorpcb.jpg)
;D ;D ;D ;D
by the way , i looked for you on RS for the NP cap, and they are located under "audio & bipolar" (http://de.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Ns=stockPolicy_de%7c1%7c%7cnew_de%7c1&Ne=4294967294&Nr=AND%28avl%3ade%2csearchDiscon_de%3aN%29&N=4294417669+4294918852), but i did not see your value of 6,8...
I needed a few of these for gyruss's sanyo (audioboard section) and they where 4,7 wich do exist at RS
Now i dont know if this is a exeption that you can use another value since its a filtercap..
Maybe its for the audio part of that TV, but its hard to say that like this and without the schematics
if you cannot find it, i would leave the oldone in, and check after the rest if its nessesary to replace
(did that also with one cap of gyruss's monitor because it was bigger than the original and did not fit on the pcb...) :oops:
anyway, no problems at gyruss monitor ;)
also i saw that one day you uploaded some videos from arcade repair tips to my ftp...
The "troubleshooting monitors with michael" videos also explain the voltage story on the capicitors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuTlChCko4k&feature=&p=B2F63700B630AEC0&index=0&playnext=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuTlChCko4k&feature=&p=B2F63700B630AEC0&index=0&playnext=1)
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(http://www.opdenkelder.com/pics/120000uf.jpg)
:o :o :o holy moly - that's what i call BIG BLUE ;)
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by the way , i looked for you on RS for the NP cap, and they are located under "audio & bipolar" (http://de.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=retrieveTfg&Ns=stockPolicy_de%7c1%7c%7cnew_de%7c1&Ne=4294967294&Nr=AND%28avl%3ade%2csearchDiscon_de%3aN%29&N=4294417669+4294918852), but i did not see your value of 6,8...
I needed a few of these for gyruss's sanyo (audioboard section) and they where 4,7 wich do exist at RS
Now i dont know if this is a exeption that you can use another value since its a filtercap..
Maybe its for the audio part of that TV, but its hard to say that like this and without the schematics
if you cannot find it, i would leave the oldone in, and check after the rest if its nessesary to replace
thx for checking, etienne. why did you check under "audio & bipolar"? wouldn't "bipolar" simply suffice? but whatever, a cap of that value doesn't exist in either section, so i guess i'll have to go with leaving it out completely. i COULD scan the schematics for you, but if we can't find the cap, what's the use of doing so?
i wish i had your desoldering station at hand, this would make the cap kit job so much easier!
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thats exactly the reason, they dont exist in theyre site ;D
you can order this , its pretty cheap :
(http://www.a-hs.no/images/HQ-DES.PUMP01.JPG)
Or use wick,
and after all, caps are easy to remove, heat one pin while holding the cap under pressure to the other direction and repeat that process with the other leg , and vice versa (wiggle it out) understand me ?
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already have a solder pump and the last cap kit i did was easier than i had expected, but it's time consuming and would probably be smoother with a desoldering iron. where's santa when you need him? ;)
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And that concludes today's history lesson :)
thx 8)! that's the thing with the car, the cage and lightning, right?
Back to the future? :)
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some more capacitor questions (for our wiki ;)):
- what do the individual markings on the capacitors mean? haven't been able to find info on it on the net ...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5245/5293008218_8498d54e7c_b_d.jpg)
- is it ok to replace an 85°C cap with a 105°C version?
- one cap says (M) 85°C (6M) - what do those letters / numbers in brackets mean? especially (M) is something i've seen quite often!
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those are not markings, they are "security vents"... ;)
Bulging of the vent on the top of the capacitor. (The 'vent' is the impression stamped in the top of the can. The impression forms the seams of the vent. It is designed so that if the capacitor becomes pressurized it will split at the vent's seams relieving the pressure rather than making it explode.)
Source.. (symptoms section) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague)
And yes, ofcourse you can replace it with a higher temperature one, sometimes even better.
it means it can support this temperature, so ovious a 85 dergee cap will fail sooner or later at a temperature of lets say 100 degrees.
here a video of some guy blowing up caps, nice to see..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jDsNe_bmtE&feature=fvsr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jDsNe_bmtE&feature=fvsr)
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thx etienne for clearing this up, i thought it might be some kind of cap indication. so basically it doesn't matter which vent is stamped on the capacitor.
as for the letters, any idea what (M) could mean? i now know that (NP) is for non-polarized and i'm happy that i've asked that question :)
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with your last question, i am going to learn something too..
if one of the guy's know the answer ofcourse :D
probably not important..
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To be honest: I have no clue what it could mean....
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next question: can i always replace axial with radial capacitors and vice versa (assuming that they fit in the holes)?
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As long as you put the + and - at the correct spots: YES !
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i usually bent the + around to the other side, because in general this end is longer than the -
to be sure to avoid shorts, i put some shrink tube around the +
By the way , some more info about Capacitors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYH9dGl4gUE&feature=fvw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYH9dGl4gUE&feature=fvw)
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Ah so the cap is a Dutch invention eh..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nice video !!
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Ah so the cap is a Dutch invention eh..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nice video !!
Not exactly, its made his debute with the leidenjar by the dutchguy , but before some german guy discoverd it with a bottle of water..
all the "make presents" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STDlCdZnIsw&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SP970BF3F6D77B12E8) video's are very learnfull (at least to me they are.. ;))
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Well the German guy discovered the phenomena but didn't put it to practical use ;)