Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: Belike on August 10, 2010, 08:01:55 AM
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I'M planning to bring the Moonwalker pcb back to life, just wanted to ask you guys, that do you have any experience with this resurrection kit from
http://www.segaresurrection.com/
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your moonwalker pcb has acid damage, right? if that's the case, then my guess is the resurrection kit won't do the trick!
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I didn't remember any acid damage, I removed that big battery, it was also clear under that.
I will post some pics in the afternoon! ;)
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Was there a real battery?? Those Sega boards normally have a big epoxy block containing CPU/Ram/Battery all in one package. It's a lithium battery which is not supposed to be leaking AFAIK.
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Never use sega ressurection service, so it's interesting (i've a cotton 2 suicidal pcb). Charles mcdonald from mameteam seems to know that guy, so i'd go with sega ressurection too :p
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I'm pretty sure it's ok! ;)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TGFpb3f8wtI/AAAAAAAABkY/ul46XE5WjaQ/s640/moonwalker%20pcb%20001.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TGFpcLFeagI/AAAAAAAABkc/4hRyewifKYk/s640/moonwalker%20pcb%20002.jpg)
Under the "battery":
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TGFpcUQ3UoI/AAAAAAAABkg/felhSDdLL2g/s640/moonwalker%20pcb%20003.jpg)
And that monster itself(dirt on the right side):
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TGFpc3jzlqI/AAAAAAAABko/Y1kvf0BWsho/s640/moonwalker%20pcb%20005.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TGFpcjgoEfI/AAAAAAAABkk/B8Q5rB-4RDE/s640/moonwalker%20pcb%20004.jpg)
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the pcb looks clean, and a gud candidate for ressurection ;)
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Interesting 8) I think my Turbo Out Run died in that way... I may try this service too, thanks for the link and hope this will bring back to life ... your Moonwalker 8)
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Is it not posible to use the roms from mame and a standard 68000 ?
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I've ordered the kit today, keep you informed if it works.... ;)
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Is it not posible to use the roms from mame and a standard 68000 ?
As far as I can see, this is all that the kit is. However, not sure what's in the ROMs. The site says that MAME is doing the decryption so you'd expect the MAME roms to be decrypted. A pretty weird way to do it IMHO. I would have guessed making encryption-free ROMS would be easier, but MAME is there for emulating the real stuff as good as possible so that's probably why they did it this way.
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Most likely they use decrypted bootleg roms from Mame. For more info on that subject I recommend this website: http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/dead.html (http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/dead.html) (The dead battery society). Some time ago I ressurected a Shinobi Board with "their" help (it's not a real society ;)) and it worked fine.
If I had a Moonwalker PCB I would have tried out which Roms work and offered the service for half the cost ;D ;)
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Let's get technical , technicaaaaaaaal (old 80's song) ;-)
In the past , i've investigate this encryption to produce the good roms myself (i got a good knowledge of 68000, thanks to my megadrive dev.)
this protection is really nasty and surely that's why mame took so long to break it. In fact there's a key in a volatile area kept alive thanks to the battery. At runtime, the program use a special 68000 op code (a cmp.w if i remember well) to switch 'on the fly' the decryption key, so depending of the program flow the decryption is different. This means that you have to run the program in the right order to get the right key switching context.
So that's why decrypting is hard, coz that means you have to run every branches of the program in the right order. And you can not do that by just playing the game as, you'll not be sure to pass every branches. Another problem is that only the program is crypted , the data array (tile maps,..) are not ! but they are mixed in the same rom, so that make it harder to produce a clean decrypted set as you have to make the difference between code and data.
I'd curious how segaressurection worked it out
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Most likely they use decrypted bootleg roms from Mame. For more info on that subject I recommend this website: http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/dead.html (http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/dead.html) (The dead battery society). Some time ago I ressurected a Shinobi Board with "their" help (it's not a real society ;)) and it worked fine.
If I had a Moonwalker PCB I would have tried out which Roms work and offered the service for half the cost ;D ;)
i think that 40$ for the spare 68000 and the other roms chips, and everything decrypted is a bargain (knowing the pain in the ass to decrypt the rom).
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Most likely they use decrypted bootleg roms from Mame. For more info on that subject I recommend this website: http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/dead.html (http://www.arcadecollecting.com/dead/dead.html) (The dead battery society). Some time ago I ressurected a Shinobi Board with "their" help (it's not a real society ;)) and it worked fine.
If I had a Moonwalker PCB I would have tried out which Roms work and offered the service for half the cost ;D ;)
i think that 40$ for the spare 68000 and the other roms chips, and everything decrypted is a bargain (knowing the pain in the ass to decrypt the rom).
I agree that's a very fair price.
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I didn't say it's too expensive, I just mentioned I would have offered it for half the cost if I knew which Roms I need (SegaRessurection do not necessarily need to encrypt them by themselves if the bootleg versions work, though I'm not sure about this in this case).
But thinking about it: I personally wouldn't even pay $40 for a working original Moonwalker or any other Sega System 18 PCB, so yeah, it's too expensive :D
I could have ordered a ressurection set for my Shinobi PCB and pay $40. But I took an ordinary Z80 CPU (costs just a few bucks, I think I took one from a parts board) and reburned two Eproms. Voilà. If I didn't already have a programmer I would have asked someone to do it for me, there are quite a lot of people in the community who are able to do this.
But to each his own. I on one hand can't & don't want to spent more money than necessary plus I prefer to tinker around with stuff myself than just buy it. Anyway, do what you like, I don't care ;D
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I didn't say it's too expensive, I just mentioned I would have offered it for half the cost if I knew which Roms I need (SegaRessurection do not necessarily need to encrypt them by themselves if the bootleg versions work, though I'm not sure about this in this case).
But thinking about it: I personally wouldn't even pay $40 for a working original Moonwalker or any other Sega System 18 PCB, so yeah, it's too expensive :D
I could have ordered a ressurection set for my Shinobi PCB and pay $40. But I took an ordinary Z80 CPU (costs just a few bucks, I think I took one from a parts board) and reburned two Eproms. Voilà. If I didn't already have a programmer I would have asked someone to do it for me, there are quite a lot of people in the community who are able to do this.
But to each his own. I on one hand can't & don't want to spent more money than necessary plus I prefer to tinker around with stuff myself than just buy it. Anyway, do what you like, I don't care ;D
You must be right, but as I'm an electronic noob, this was the easiest and fastest option. ;D
Unfortunately I don't know anyone here in Hungary who can burn eproms, even don't have the files for it and if I add all costs together(parts, shipping, packing, etc.) from Europe, it's almost the same price if I ask somebody from here to make it.
I'm planning to learn everything about eprom programming, there are a lot of guys here with pcb problems, my beloved hobby could be my second job! ;D
Btw I sell a BOOTLEG!!! Moonwalker pcb for 200 Usd this year, so I don't think the original one's value is less. :P
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HUH !? That's a shitload of money....
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Everything about MJ this year has been gold. 200$ for a bootleg, that's crazy :) good deal belike ^^
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You must be right, but as I'm an electronic noob, this was the easiest and fastest option. ;D
I'm planning to learn everything about eprom programming, there are a lot of guys here with pcb problems, my beloved hobby could be my second job! ;D
going from an electro noob to a guy who knows everything about eprom programming is a gigantic undertaking - good luck! :spaceace:
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You must be right, but as I'm an electronic noob, this was the easiest and fastest option. ;D
I'm planning to learn everything about eprom programming, there are a lot of guys here with pcb problems, my beloved hobby could be my second job! ;D
Don't expect to get rich...
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You must be right, but as I'm an electronic noob, this was the easiest and fastest option. ;D
I'm planning to learn everything about eprom programming, there are a lot of guys here with pcb problems, my beloved hobby could be my second job! ;D
Don't expect to get rich...
Better start a business by building moonwalker cab ;)
http://fr.kapaza.be/belgique/michael-jackson-moonwalker-arcadekast-50781652.htm
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Board only... ;D
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360169573914
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Any news about your kit Bela ??? ?
I sent to us an email about a week ago for a kit, but no news.
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Any news about your kit Bela ??? ?
I sent to us an email about a week ago for a kit, but no news.
I had good experiences with that guy, he was very kind and shipping didn't last longer than a week.
As I remember, I've also waiting more than a week for his responses, keep him posting! ;D
About my pcb, I made a very silly and noob mistake.
Here is the kit:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TKOS6gdeo9I/AAAAAAAAB0c/OEPaAFLqaME/s912/k%C3%A9p%20007.jpg)
Compared with the old pieces:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TKOS7NHar5I/AAAAAAAAB0g/G38XvhNuU8o/s912/k%C3%A9p%20008.jpg)
Everything swapped in order:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TKOS7jv4YbI/AAAAAAAAB0k/ChLj4YbFApU/s912/k%C3%A9p%20010.jpg)
And fingers crossed..............................fu...ing same result than earlier:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TKOUeVA7K7I/AAAAAAAAB1E/7hzJ211Caog/s912/k%C3%A9p%20016.jpg)
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I turned the pcb than to solder side, that I didn't check earlier, cause I focused on the suicide battery area:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TKOS8AaaqbI/AAAAAAAAB0o/gQnFtfq66WE/s800/k%C3%A9p%20021.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TKOS8SqxJaI/AAAAAAAAB0s/k5x2LV8NUP4/s800/k%C3%A9p%20027.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TKOTyaj5RWI/AAAAAAAAB04/T4ReQZ0RwoY/s800/k%C3%A9p%20030.jpg)
Looks great, eh? :o
The damage is not on the other side of the suicide battery area, it could be damaged by something else! :'(
What do you think guys, is there any hope to fix this nightmare?
I would really like to fix this one for the memory of Michael jackson! 8)
Edit:It has "only" one acid damage area, pics made from 3 directions
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ouch! :shock: :'(
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Thanks for the feedback Bela ;).
About your pcb, well ... a lot of stuff :o.
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Clean it thoroughly with white vinegar and a brush. Then wash the vinegar residues away with alcohol.
This at least gives you a proper look at the PCBs traces to examine the damage there.
Maybe you're lucky and this will be enough, but it looks pretty nasty.
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Any news about your kit Bela ??? ?
I sent to us an email about a week ago for a kit, but no news.
I've got a reply today 8) : transaction in progress (Super Monaco GP pcb).
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Clean it thoroughly with white vinegar and a brush. Then wash the vinegar residues away with alcohol.
This at least gives you a proper look at the PCBs traces to examine the damage there.
Maybe you're lucky and this will be enough, but it looks pretty nasty.
I did the treatment, nothing changed. :'(
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TKSJc2jxqrI/AAAAAAAAB1g/u2m_x4OTogQ/s912/k%C3%A9p%20034.jpg)
Any hope to fix those circuits somehow?
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I don't know if soldering wires to replace the broken connections would be doable.
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If you are patience, have a little solder skills , and some spare ribbon cables (lots of loose wires looks like a mess ;)), then its worth a try
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looks like you need lots and lots of wires for this one ...
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One other option is to look for a cheap replacement board. Sega made a bunch of different games on this hardware (System 18), and I doubt that all are usually as expensive as Moonwalker. Here is a list, though they are all not really common, so it may be a little difficult to find something: http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=702
However, I can't guarantee of course that all boards are exactly the same (though they should be). If you get one all you need to do is swap the chips.
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Thanks for the tips, I will do my best to save it! ;)
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One other option is to look for a cheap replacement board. Sega made a bunch of different games on this hardware (System 18), and I doubt that all are usually as expensive as Moonwalker. Here is a list, though they are all not really common, so it may be a little difficult to find something: http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=702
However, I can't guarantee of course that all boards are exactly the same (though they should be). If you get one all you need to do is swap the chips.
(noob question mode on)
Swap the chips means only the removable ones or the "fixed soldered" also?
(noob question mode off) ;D
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i think u'll just have to swap the daughter board (no chip to swap)
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Yes, in this case you can swap the entire daughterboard. I'm not sure about the motherboard, there might be some game specific chips as well. If so, then they will be socketed and easy to swap.
No need to unsolder every single part :D ;)
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i think u'll just have to swap the daughter board (no chip to swap)
Yes, in this case you can swap the entire daughterboard. I'm not sure about the motherboard, there might be some game specific chips as well. If so, then they will be socketed and easy to swap.
No need to unsolder every single part :D ;)
Thanks guys, seems like I found a Clutch Hitter pcb, that's a real idiot american baseball game, I think nothing we could loose if I exchange that silly game with Jacko! ;D
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Thanks guys, seems like I found a Clutch Hitter pcb, that's a real idiot american baseball game, I think nothing we could loose if I exchange that silly game with Jacko! ;D
great !! fingers crossed ;)
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any news ? :p
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any news ? :p
I tried to buy that Clutch hitter from Quarterarcade, it was on their stocklist, but Anthony didn't find the pcb, so I have to look for another one.
There are a few in ebay, I will send some "best offer" to the sellers. ;)
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Package arrived today
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TL2g0YqJ2FI/AAAAAAAAB7Q/cAVC_ikif0I/s800/Clutch%20Walker%20pcb%20001.jpg)
A Clutch Hitter pcb???!! ???Who ordered this garbage? ???
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TL2g0mal6gI/AAAAAAAAB7U/xhtLjoJznjw/s800/Clutch%20Walker%20pcb%20002.jpg)
If it is already here, let's try to swap the daughterboard and the CPU with Moonwalker
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TL2g1MxjxUI/AAAAAAAAB7Y/rWwMxejSHn0/s800/Clutch%20Walker%20pcb%20005.jpg)
This almost 20 years old battery still works fine, but has to go
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_-UA8BV99Des/TL2g1RUcYVI/AAAAAAAAB7c/TUrzMZI6Sx8/s800/Clutch%20Walker%20pcb%20006.jpg)
Into the Big Screen and fingers crossed :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9pe4XAL-zA
Aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for all of you who helped me resurrect this pcb and aslo for Chris at Segaresurrection.com! ;D
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Yeah! its Alive!! , Aliiiiiiive !
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_co3wu2CRTpo/SbqQx58xbpI/AAAAAAAAA1U/HKWE2gZMADA/s320/its_alive-fstn-721852.jpg)
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well done, bela! your hard work, investment and patience paid off in the end - congratulations!!!
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great news !! congrats , who's bad ? ;D
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well done, bela! your hard work, investment and patience paid off in the end - congratulations!!!
great news !! congrats , who's bad ? ;D
Thanks guys, I'm really happy to save this one. ;D
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Cool! :)
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HUH !? That's a shitload of money....
Sold this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250734757847) today. ;D :'(
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Jeez....so much money for such a..........game....
O well, one's death is the others' bread as we say here in Holland ;)
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Jeez....so much money for such a..........game....
O well, one's death is the others' bread as we say here in Holland ;)
Totally agreed.
It was just a crazy idea to list this pcb on ebay for 499 usd and this was the best offer I received. ;)
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WHAT - A - DEAL!!! congrats bela
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WHAT - A - DEAL!!! congrats bela
Thx Ully, I'm really curious how much will this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Michael-Jacksons-Moonwalker-PCB-Working-NR-L-K-/300531493003?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f912a88b) go with the original suicide battery. :D
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WOW !!!! i never thought it would be that much ! congrats ;)