Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Technical Area => Topic started by: level42 on March 06, 2010, 12:06:31 AM
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Well, while we were shifting cabs around a couple of cabs some weeks ago, I thought up a devious plan:
How about I'd offer Ckong to work on his Gravitar ? That would give me at least a couple of weeks to drool over, play with work on the machine ! ;D
There was a gentleman's deal between Ckong and me. An exchange of goods for working hours, a deal we're both happy with.
Anyway, of course Erik's Gravitar was working when we bought it. It was also working when we put it up in my kitchen. In first looks the monitor is nice, but there are some (small) issues that _can_ be improved.
First there was a bit of a shock: Of course I had to remove the monitor from the cab, and (esp. because it's not MY cab) I read the manual to check how to do it. Had to unlock something on the back, but that was already loose. Then I had to remove the monitor just like on a Centipede: open CP, remove glass and bezel, remove bolts and get out the monitor. Only this time I didn't have to remove the bolts because they weren't there ! Turned out we were _very_ lucky to transport the machine on the back !
Another good lesson learned, CHECK that everything is fixed before transporting a cab. No offense to Oli, I'm sure he was in the assumption that it was fixed.
The tinted bezel glass is always good as it always "hides" minor flaws. After some cleaning of the front the monitor looks like this:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4934/web.jpg?ver=12678293960001)
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4936/web.jpg?ver=12678294360001)
It has some slight burn in of Gravitar so it's probably the original monitor still. Also there are some tiny burn-marks at weird spots (not the center), but all this is hardly noticeable at all when playing the game.
The issue's I noticed after some thorough testing (yes this included playing the game, but purely for analysis of course) are:
1) the convergence is not perfect. It looks like the center is OK, but we can get better edges with some metal strips.....problem is I'm out of them....will need to find a source for them ASAP.
2) the brightness seemed to not be entirely stable. I tried gently tapping on the neckboard and indeed I could see (at least the red) go dimmer and brighter at times. The conclusion is pretty easy: bad driver and bias pots. Plus maybe some poor solderings, as I've experienced those on another WG6100 before.
3) The image is a bit "jittery". This is very likely also caused by bad pots. But this time they're not on the monitor but on the PCB. In the vector area there are about 8 pots to regulate the image. If pots go bad in that area, it will influence the picture in horizontal and/or vertical way.
To solve problem 2) I bought some pots today (had to resort to my trusty electronics store in the area because RS didn't even have this size pots !?!?!)
The one's I got are Euro sized but they fit great with a tiny bit of bending the outer legs.
About bad pots. We all know the effect of a bad pot on a radio: crackling. You will here a crackling sound. Sometimes when you turn the volume up or down you will notice it even more. Exactly the same happens when pots get older on monitors, but the effect is different of course.
With the pots on the neck-board, they will have an effect on the brightness of the colors. So if you move the pots slightly (or _gently_ tap them) you will see the brightness of one or more color change. It's like the crackling sound, but this time it's visible not audible. This shouldn't happen of course.
Of course you could try to use some contact spray on the pots but I'm strongly against it. IF it works, it's only temporary. The issue is that the pot has probably been on one setting for it's entire life. This causes the bad spot to be _exactly_ at the "correct" setting of that pot. You won't fix that with any spray. Replacing the pots is the only good solution.
Now, I needed 500 Ohms and 15K pots. But 15K is not in the E-series we use over here. Lukely those were the bias pots and one side of the pot goes to ground, so it wasn't that important. I bought 25k (or is it 20k?) instead. Note that it's not ALWAYS possible to do this, but it was in this case...
When replacing the pots, I carefully measured each one of them, to be able to "copy" the settings to the new pots. This saved me from having to completely re-adjust the colors, and it worked out great !
Here's the new (left) and old pots:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4930/web.jpg?ver=12678296500001)
Even though I double-checked everything I'm always still anxious when powering it up again, but to my relief the normal picture came up. I adjusted the red a bit, because it was a bit too weak compared to the blue and green. I tried _gently_ tapping the neckboard again (I use the "rubbery" back of my screwdrivers for this) and this time the color stayed fixed. So, issue 2) is solved !
I also had to resolder a wire on the neckboard: I had taken the neckboard from the tube 3 or 4 times, and one wire simply broke off. This shows that age is doing bad things on these old machines ;) Any way, stripped the wire and resoldered. I of course checked all the other wires but they were still OK.
The broken wire (already newly stripped):
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4931/web.jpg?ver=12678296650001)
I ordered the pots for the PCB from RS plus also caps for the monitor. This time I decided to go with high quality Panasonic caps, 105 degree versions. Erik said the game deserved the best, so it gets the best.
Have to wait for those parts to arrive now. So let's see if I can get my high-score up a bit.....(I'm at 2nd spot now, but I doubt I will ever reach the first spot !).
Here's the monitor, it's been running happily for about an hour now...it's good to be able to test it like that on the back side :D
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4932/web.jpg?ver=12678296580001)
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4933/web.jpg?ver=12678296710001)
Erik will also order an LV2000 to replace the Low Voltage section of the WG. There already have been some modifications made, but I'd like to go save with one of the LV2000's.
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wonderful job, andré! and an interesting write-up. even i caught up on some of the things you wrote ;). and as always: nice to see how your helping fellow "arcadians" out. :-*
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wonderful job, erik!
Huh ?
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why are you "huh-ing"? ;) ;) ;)
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André, my friend, this is really interesting to read. I know that we made an agreement, and you should know that I'm very glad that you are doing this for me. Fortunately I know that you enjoy doing technical work on games :)
We (I mean, I) were very lucky with the loose monitor. I'm sure that Oliver will also be as surprised as us if he reads this. He didn't know this, I'm sure of that.
And please, do as much test-gaming as you want :D
About the metal strips, couldn't you use a few of the spare ones which I got with the Star wars cockpit? They are in a cartboard box in the cockpit.
Edit: I completely forgot about the LV2000, will order it tomorrow :oops:
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LV2000 ordered :)
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Replaced 6 of the 8 pots on the game PCB. I'm actually not sure if it helped for the jittering. It seems less, but it's still there. I'm getting the feeling this might be some kind of interference.
I'll do the last two pots tomorrow. It's not a waste of time because the pots were pretty "jumpy" when trying to adjust them and they're nice and smooth now.
I also received the Panasonic 105 degr. caps for the WG6100.
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maybe shield some wires as a expiriment against interference ?
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Mmmm, the problem is how and which. And it's probably not the wires.
The wires that carry video signals are all twisted to prevent interference.
It could still be a cap problem. Or maybe the LV2000 will ease it out.
You know, most people probably wouldn't even notice it, it's really very minor only, and (as Erik knows) there's a chance that I can't fix it. This (like almost all repairs) is a best effort try only.
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Progress !!!!
Today, wife away for the day, son to a friend, aaaahhhhhh I've got all the time and space and no-one around to bother me !
SO, let's get some work done !
I first installed the caps. It's still amazing to see how small the modern caps are today:
Left old, right new. Yes same Farads, some voltage !
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4987/web.jpg?ver=12685116460001)
The new big two caps on the deflection board. The old one's were about twice as high...
To the bottom left you still see an old cap. There are two of those in the low voltage section. I left them there because when installing the LV2000 they will need to be removed completely anyway....
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4988/web.jpg?ver=12685116040001)
There are surprising few elco's (electrolytic caps) on the deflection board. There were two more that I hadn't seen on the other WG6100 I worked on, but there are different revisions...turned out those caps are bipolar. Guess I'll leave them as these are pretty hard to find.
The HV board has the most caps. It's a pain to reach the HV-PCB, you need to remove the cage from the frame and then remove the top metal-screen. The problem is that they of course used non-metric bolts AND they used the kind you can't operate with a screw driver. There's a non-metric tool set on it's way from the US but seems to be stuck at customs (?!?!) so I had to use some pliers to get everything loose:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4986/web.jpg?ver=12685115860001)
New caps installed, just need to clip the legs:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4990/web.jpg?ver=12685116130001)
Yes the caps are a lot smaller ;D Had to replace one axial cap with a radial, no big deal.
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4989/web.jpg?ver=12685116360001)
Even though I check my work 3 times it's still a tense moment to power it back up again. I did it in a couple of steps so that IF anything went wrong, I'd not have to search long to find WHERE it went wrong.
But nothing went wrong ! Gotta love the moving logo:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4992/web.jpg?ver=12685115960001)
After that it was running through the test-screens. First I thought the jitter was still there completely, but I was test-running it with the metal screen removed and it is well known that this is bad for the deflection and causes jitter. After re-installing I must say the jitter has improved. Must be the caps, but there is still a some jitter to see...
I one re-adjuste everything, brightness, colors, focus.
Then there was still the convergence to be done.
I went to the storage to pick up some strips that Erik got with the SW cockpit. I tried getting it better using these strips, but it seems they are not very "powerful". May be the used metal. They look self-made, maybe that's the cause ?
Anyway, I decided to try to get it better by using the convergence controls on the neck and YES this was the way to go !!!
I had to break the glue on the magnetic rings to set it so it was definitely not set too well at the factory :D
Within moments I had almost a perfect convergence. And there was only 1 metal strip to make it just that one step better in one corner. It's not 100% perfect, but it's as perfect as you can desire to get it on a 30 year old CRT IMHO.
I reinstalled the monitor and it was a joy to see how much it improved already. I really hope the LV2000 will improve the jitter even more because that's the only thing left that annoys me a bit.
But I'm really pleased and I'm sure Erik will be too. Of course I had to do some test-playing and well, test-playing seems the time to break hi-scores:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4991/web.jpg?ver=12685129470001)
he-he-he-he, Erik that gives you something to chew on when you get it home. That is if I don't improve it a bit more ;)
I must say I can do the first maze-planet pretty easily now, then do one "normal" planet on the 2nd level. When I completed that I did the maze-planet again and survived through it ! Then I actually got pretty far on the "star" planet on the 3rd level but JUST didn't complete it. But not too shabby IMHO :D
SO, now it's waiting for the LV2000, install that and it's ready !
I posted a question about the jitter on the Vector e-mail list, maybe I'll get some good tips...
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:spaceace: :spaceace:
Great work André, I'm very, very happy with the result ;D ;D
Look how much better above picture is than this one:
(http://gallery.me.com/andre.huijts/100715/DSCF4941/web.jpg?ver=12678634350001)
I am impressed.
The LV2000 was shipped last wednesday, I hope that it will be here very soon.
About your high score: :o :o I hope that you do know that most players find it almost impossible to survive the first maze planet, and you say that it's easy! Chapeau. I will need a very long time to top your score. Maybe I will also have to call it test-playing :lol:
Edit: what is the difference between pilot list and co pilot list?
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Uhm. well that's a pretty cool feature of Gravitar.
When there's no serious (only the default) hi-scores it says:
FLUNKEY LIST
When there's some reasonable scores it changes to COPILOT LIST.
Once you get REAL scores it goes to PILOT LIST.
As you can see there was a really hi-score when the machine arrived (in the 80000). Not sure if Oliver scored that but, and I swear on everything that is holy for me, but I accidentally deleted the hi-scores when I tried to go into test-mode at one time.....
Pretty stupid really.... :oops: :oops:
The picture comparison isn't really fair because one was made at day time, the other at night time, but indeed you can already see the improvement. It's even better in real life.
Game has been running fine for the entire night. I got some tips on the jitter that I will check out (f.i. replacing the caps around the voltage regulators on the vector section on the game PCB.)
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but I accidentally deleted the hi-scores when I tried to go into test-mode at one time.....
Pretty stupid really.... :oops: :oops:
Aha, I can delete your high score when it is at my place? That's a relief :lol:
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Sure you can.
But you can't delete the pics here ;D ;D ;D ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHVtay_nTgA
Looks a bit bleach....but just to give an idea....
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I first installed the caps. It's still amazing to see how small the modern caps are today:
Left old, right new. Yes same Farads, some voltage !
Today caps are smaller, but not good as the old one.
The old one are better made, todays caps are shit if you compare them at the same age.
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Thanks for the vid. I immediately saw that the red color has gotten much brighter then it was before. The overall picture sure looks very nice. You are a magician (for me at least). Gameplay sounds are unfamiliar to me however.
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Thanks for the vid. I immediately saw that the red color has gotten much brighter then it was before. The overall picture sure looks very nice. You are a magician (for me at least). Gameplay sounds are unfamiliar to me however.
Heheheh, yeah it's just the attract and Wilma had just returned so....blablablabla..... :D
About the caps: I esp. adviced Erik to go for brand caps (in this case Panasonic) and 105 Degr. versions. Why would today's be worse compared to the old one's (cost reduction ?). I think there's a lot of rubbish on the market from cheap Chinese brands but I hope the brand names still produce some decent stuff...
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Yesterday (well, last night) I found this cool video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrs369nuezQ
I just tried this trick this morning and it worked !
Funny, but pretty pointless.....
Any way, there's a great website dedicated to Gravitar with AMAZING stuff by the current world-record holder Dan Coogan:
http://www.cooganphoto.com/gravitar/gravitar.html
One of the gems (amongst many others) are an interview AND the FULL Gravitar project binder by Mike Hally. All 350 pages of them !
http://www.cooganphoto.com/gravitar/binder.html
I love that kind of stuff, I prefer to read that over reading a novel :P It's the moments like that that I would love to own an iPad.
If you don't want to read all of it, read at least the first two pages, it's a very interesting memo about licensing (Namco) games Kangaroo and Fly Boy and developing Atari's own games and about the quality difference between the two (which is _very_ true).
I must say that I always had a hint I would like Gravitar because I loved Lunar Lander. (Gravitar was initially named Lunar Battle). There's something about a being in control of a space ship that is drawn by gravity.
The game is _so_ elegant. It requires TOTAL control. It requires you to CONTROL your nerves. If you get into the slightest form of panic, you're dead. Play this game when you are tired/angry/exited and you will fail.
Instead of minslessly banging fire buttons this game actually requires you to let loose of your hate against the enemy. You have to search your feelings and free it of bad feelings. Because else you will be drawn to the dark side... o wait sorry....
It requires your total calmnes. I doubt a serious record could be played in public because on-lookers will be going OOOOOH, and AAAAAH at narrow escapes or tight situations all the time (you actually have to control yourself not to do it....)
Really, you need to be in balance, you need to be in a completely focussed stated of mind, your yin and yang need to be perfect to achieve serious scores on this game.
It's brilliant.
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André, I do get the game back, don't I? Olli already warned me because he immediately saw that you were completely into the game. ;)
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André, I do get the game back, don't I? Olli already warned me because he immediately saw that you were completely into the game. ;)
Give it back ? What are you talking about ?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Olli was right ! :D
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About the caps: I esp. adviced Erik to go for brand caps (in this case Panasonic) and 105 Degr. versions. Why would today's be worse compared to the old one's (cost reduction ?). I think there's a lot of rubbish on the market from cheap Chinese brands but I hope the brand names still produce some decent stuff...
The branded cap you will buy on retail market is not that bad. The one used on retail product are not so good...
I never replaced so many caps like in the last 2/3 years. The "standard" PC power supply are the worst example. The well know brand pc PS are from another planet.
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I think I might try and video some gameplay next time. I don't have a tripod though.
Need to know TG rules, I want to be in that top 10 list :)
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And....done.....
I installed the LV2000 and I may say that it was needed. Not that the monitor wasn't working before, but there has been (as with almost every WG6100) burns in the low voltage section before. This was fixed with a different (better) kind of transistors by earlier men who worked on it. Due to the burning, the PCB almost burnt through at some spots, causing the PCB tracks to come loose. This was all fixed very well though, good work done before, but I prefer to replace the entire low-voltage section with a LV2000 and be safe for sure.
Anyway, since I have already installed one on Luc's WG6100 is was a pretty straightforward job, desoldering all the original Low-voltage section parts and installing the three legs and two wires of the LV2000. I did have to make some bypasses because of the damaged/disappeared tracks but I could use the LV2000 legs for that so that was really easy.
Also resoldered one of the legs of one big resistor on the deflection board. This one is getting so damn hot, its seems to be desoldering itself over time ! I strongly suggest to replace it with a bigger (more watt) one Erik !
So, I fired it up, and to my relieve both LV2000 LEDs came on, the spot-killer LED came on and went out again (like it should when it correctly works) and there was a picture appearing. BUT, there was no red !
No panic though, gotta love experience. Because I connected the monitor on the floor at the back of the cab (because I still had to adjust the LV2000 pots) the wire harness of course had been moved around a bit. This caused the red (or the ground of the red) pin in the connector to come loose from the connector. I had exactly the same with my SW cockpit once or twice.
It shows that it would be a good idea to replace those connectors, but that's a nice job for Erik :D
So, I checked the low-voltages as described by the LV2000 manual. They were a tiny bit high so I re-adjusted them to exactly 26 Volt and -26 Volt.
The monitor worked exactly like it did before though. I can still see the tiny jitter. I'm sure most people probably wouldn't notice. It looks like it's only happening when there are a lot of vectors (lots of text) on the screen so it really doesn't hurt gameplay.
The only things I can still think of this moment are the Big Blue and the AR-2 caps. I measured the ground between the power brick and the monitor and there's about 1 Ohm resistance there. Looks pretty OK to me for a metal to metal mearurement but I will investigate a bit more.
I still need to check the HV output to be sure it's 19.5kV and the B+ voltage.
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Good work André, and I believe that you are almost done, and then you can start practicing for your High Score attack. ;D
Yes please, leave something for me to do, I will have no problem with those connectors. But could you replace the big transistor on the deflection board for me, I'm not used to replacing them?
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HOLY SMOKES !
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250607639184&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1069
That is INSANE !
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Wow, that better not be mine!
I know, it isn't, and I am very glad that I have a working one in my Gravitar game. How is the High Score doing?
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I haven't been able to match it so far, but I'm pretty steady at scoring 50000/55000 now.
That's the big issue for taping a record....I've got a tri-pod now though.....now I need time (and rest at my home). Probably next sunday !!! :D
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The prototype of Gravitar was indeed called Lunar Battle. I infact had a Lunar Battle once, but I ran out of money and couldn't afford to import it :(
I sold it to a friend in CA in the end.
Pix: http://www.arcadeoll.com/pics/LunarBattle/
Oliver
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I love tempest so much that I decided to convert my Gravitar to it: http://arcarc.xmission.com/Faqs/Conversion%20FAQS/Gravitar%20To%20Tempest.txt ;)
Or shall I make it a Black widow: http://arcarc.xmission.com/Faqs/Conversion%20FAQS/Gravitar%20to%20Black%20Widow.txt
Or ...... Major Havoc: http://arcarc.xmission.com/Faqs/Conversion%20FAQS/Gravitar%20to%20Major%20Havoc.txt
No, just kidding, but it is interesting to know that it is possible quite easily.
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Well......the fun had to end, I mean it always does. Just like this is the last day of my holiday, the Gravitar had to be moved out of the kitchen. It has been there WAAAAAAAAYYYY longer than I had promised to my wife but today was the day.....
It's safe in CKONG's storage now. Waiting for his gameroom to be built....
It was good having you Gravi !
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Well......the fun had to end, I mean it always does. Just like this is the last day of my holiday, the Gravitar had to be moved out of the kitchen. It has been there WAAAAAAAAYYYY longer than I had promised to my wife but today was the day.....
It's safe in CKONG's storage now. Waiting for his gameroom to be built....
It was good having you Gravi !
Thanks André, I hope that I cna pick it up real soon. fortunately it will get some new company next week.
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Old thread yeah I know...and somehow this has gone "under te radar" a bit but.....this fantastic machine is not a temporary guest in my home anymore :)
Yes it is my Gravitar now :)
I discovered it still needs some work here and there and sometimes it's nice to do a "quick and dirty job".....I noticed that the buttons weren't moving that smoothly anymore so...
Amazing how some former owners neglect simple maintenance like this..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yugh !
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Better ? Better !
Added a tiny bit of silicon grease to make them smoooooooooth.....
Oh, and I did all this before RGE/Eurocade so don't worry, you played with clean buttons ;D
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Other things to do ?
- Restore coin door (yeaaahhhhh, my favorite job ......NOT !)
- fox wiring harness near coin area. Some hacking there, can't find the test switch f.i. and I need that to get the test-screens
- redo convergence. I learned in the mean time and I can get it better for sure
- maybe install new kick plate laminate....
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Nice one.
Yeah, those former owners!! Always neglecting games, I know! ;D But then again, if there wouldn't be a former owner, then there wouldn't be a new owner. :lol:
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LOL ;) ;) ;)
I am still in 7th heaven from now owning this machine my friend :D
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I recently discovered what's REALLY holding me down in this hobby.....it is a thing called WORK.
My company closes for 2 weeks around the holidays (Yay !) and man have I done some useful stuff, not just finishing the Ms.Pac but also the gameroom is actually very presentable and all games can be reached and played...I also installed the Atari neon, removed the DK graphics on the black wall (don't stick, colors were shot) and hung up lots of Level 42 gig posters and picture discs (mostly signed stuff) and installed a nice roll-up curtain that I had bought a year or so ago.
I actually loved doing all this and so I decided that I have to stop this thing called WORK.
The great thing is that my next plan of winning the lottery actually worked too !!
However I'm not entirely sure if the €10 we won will be sufficient to live for the next 40 years or so.....
Anyway....after the family visits of new years' day I had some time to install the Vector Labs multi kit on the Gravitar.
Very easy to install, remove 6502, put it on the processor board and put that in the 6502 socket, remove the four vector proms and put in the vector prom PCB and connect the edge connector PCB. Hook these three boards up with the included flat-cable and presto !
Put back the board and.........the game was running but I had really weird squewed vectors !! WTF......the game did run though sooooooo...what could it be.....well....I reconnect or the small edge connector and the problem was gone......butt then the Shield button didn't work anymore. Reconnected the big connector again and problem solved.....conclusion: those edge connectors need to be replaced ASAP !
Apart from that, I could now switch through Gravitar, Lunar Battle and Black Widow.
I couldn't play Lunar Battle because strangely this is not on free play while Gravitar is and the credit switches don't seem to work. Couldn't try Black Widow for the same reason plus I have no CP for it....
So, there's still some things to do tomorrow :)
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Mmmm.......mmmmm........mmmmmm......
Do you guys think that the fact that ALL but 2 coin-door wires were cut (and not fixed) -MIGHT- have anything to do with the coin-switches not registering ?
Where's the seller of this machine.....I demand my money back ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D