Dragon's Lair Fans - Arcade Lifestyle
General Chat => Arcade Lifestyle => Topic started by: Belike on October 02, 2011, 10:20:21 AM
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At last, I could purchase a nice original Money Money pcb, unfortunately the seller informed me before shipping, that he retested the pcb and it has some graphic issues.I took 50% discount, so it was a nice price, let's hope we can fix it somehow.
Sorry, but I couldn't miss to take these pics ;D
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5IaLO-iTkIQ/TogbtQVfwmI/AAAAAAAAEvE/LYbpzvUB1a0/s800/Money%252520Money%252520009.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8EsA7RiNYkY/TogbuMAH7dI/AAAAAAAAEvI/8qPvhSysA_w/s640/Money%252520Money%252520010.jpg)
It is one of the very few boards under Zaccaria copyright. ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_WWn3PGgoXM/TogbsIdmUQI/AAAAAAAAEu4/TKuXJkctzCA/s800/Money%252520Money%252520015.jpg)
It is 100% playable, sound, speech, background ok, but all the moving objects have vertical lines in them.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0nzM7yz2Pwc/TogbsPU3LgI/AAAAAAAAEvA/EgLFWd3N_hY/s128/Money%252520Money%252520006.jpg)
A short video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU5vG8vv1Yk
I made the usual cleaning and reseating process, but it didn't solve the problem. :-\
Any ideas?
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Nice cab you got there ;) ;D
as for your question, i dont have a idea, but you know who to contact for PCB repairs right ? :P
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Nice...will be a great job to fit that PCB into the cab ;D
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Ask IronGiant, he has repaired a few PCB´s for me! (i think he´s on here... or else he´s on JAMMA+)
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that game looks like fun! do you have the cabinet which goes around the pcb?
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that game looks like fun! do you have the cabinet which goes around the pcb?
The only known original cabinet is at Paul's place in the States.
(http://zzzaccaria.com/images/Photos/Money%20Money.jpg)
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that game looks like fun! do you have the cabinet which goes around the pcb?
It is !
i needed to do alot of research when i build that minizacc, an for the name of science i played a bit ;D
Its a bit like pacman, but then ofcourse different ;)
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Well, strictly speaking there are two - I have one in the UK that's been converted and one the US that's original but wrecked. They will become one good one hopefully next year.
The board interconnects (the ribbon cables) are known for being unreliable so I'd try moving those around. It's also quite heavy on the power supply - the US250 in the Jackrabbit pumps out 5.2V in order to get the stack of boards to have a reasonable power supply at the far corners.
Got a screen shot of your graphics problem?
Regards,
Paul.
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Belike posted a video with it. The vertical stripes going through the sprites.
That looks pretty fun indeed ! Like the music and the voice !
Just saw another (emulated) Youtube video and it also has a "roofs" scene, a swimming scene and a car driving scene.
Gotta love the "Swiss bank" sign at the end !!!!
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How deep into the electronics do you want to go :)
You have horizontal jail bars over the sprites. Start with sheet 1 of the EPROM board in the schematics - there are two sets of graphics with the busses AB/D and AF/DF - the "B" are probably background and the "F" foreground. The lower 3 bits of the AF/DF EPROMS are mrked "E0, E1, E2" (the "E" is a sum sign). This is likely the row index for the sprite data. I'd start with taking a look at thoses on an oscilloscope or with a video probe. Since your video shows the sprites moving behind the jail bars, I'm suspecting it's the the "E" sum that's off, but likely further back in the counter/sum chain that generates them.
Regards,
Paul.
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Thanks for the detailed info, I will try my best to investigate that. ;D
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:P
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How deep into the electronics do you want to go :)
You have horizontal jail bars over the sprites. Start with sheet 1 of the EPROM board in the schematics - there are two sets of graphics with the busses AB/D and AF/DF - the "B" are probably background and the "F" foreground. The lower 3 bits of the AF/DF EPROMS are mrked "E0, E1, E2" (the "E" is a sum sign). This is likely the row index for the sprite data. I'd start with taking a look at thoses on an oscilloscope or with a video probe. Since your video shows the sprites moving behind the jail bars, I'm suspecting it's the the "E" sum that's off, but likely further back in the counter/sum chain that generates them.
Regards,
Paul.
Btw. is the original schematics available on the net somewhere or do you have it?
Thanks in advance. ;)
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Might be this one...
http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Manuals_and_Schematics/Money%20Money.pdf (http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Manuals_and_Schematics/Money%20Money.pdf)
Page 4 is where the AF and "E" are generated. Good luck :)
Paul.
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Might be this one...
http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Manuals_and_Schematics/Money%20Money.pdf (http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Manuals_and_Schematics/Money%20Money.pdf)
Page 4 is where the AF and "E" are generated. Good luck :)
Paul.
Thanks. ;)
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lines are mostly defect ram memory
What ram's are on the pcb ?
To low 5 volt can also give lines in sprites !
Do you have close pictures of the pcb ?
Nice pcb by the way :wink:
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The object RAM is 2114 but this PCB does not have sprite location or selection issues that it looks like this RAM is used for. The sprite data is missing a horizontal line. I'd be looking around IC's 2D-2G for dead lines (EV1-8 to the E0-E2 calculation).
If you want to start learning how to repair a PCB jail bars is a great fault to start with because it's usually easy to find :)
Paul.
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2148 ram at 7E , 7D , 7K , 7L are the sprites ram ( i think ::))
piggyback them and see of the lines are gone
check also
74ls244 7c , 7m
74ls86 7a , 8a , 7p , 8p
74ls374 7b , 7n
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The object RAM is 2114 but this PCB does not have sprite location or selection issues that it looks like this RAM is used for. The sprite data is missing a horizontal line. I'd be looking around IC's 2D-2G for dead lines (EV1-8 to the E0-E2 calculation).
If you want to start learning how to repair a PCB jail bars is a great fault to start with because it's usually easy to find :)
Paul.
2114 ram's are mostly not for the moving object if there are 2148(9) rams on the pcb
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Huh, so much info for a noob like me, but I will have to learn this. ;D
Btw. what does it mean "piggyback"? :oops:
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:D
i make a picture for you ;D
You put a new ic to a old ic
It work not alway's !
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Could be the sprite out post processing as Robin suggested - be easier to investigate with a video probe (that's a probe that's attached to one of the colour inputs of the monitor so you can see the signal in relation to the picture on the screen).
Since a nice collection of inputs and outputs are connected to the 2 82S100's (8C & 8N) you may be able to work out which line is out.
Fingers crossed it's not the 82S100 :|
Paul.
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Heheh, the first time I read the word "Piggy back" was when we were doing hack-yourself memory upgrades on our Atari 8 bits :)
But then it was a definite piggy back, with some select pins folded up and wired separately.
Until five seconds ago, I never understood where the term "piggy back" came from, but it turns out that it has nothing to do with pigs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggy-back_(transportation)
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Hm.. Is a Piggi-Back something like this ?
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070208230146/de.uncyclopedia/images/thumb/7/76/Schweinearsch.jpg/300px-Schweinearsch.jpg)
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And in germany the define piggyback with THIS :#
(http://shouldawouldacoulda.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/fat-woman.jpg)
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Heheh, the first time I read the word "Piggy back" was when we were doing hack-yourself memory upgrades on our Atari 8 bits :)
But then it was a definite piggy back, with some select pins folded up and wired separately.
Until five seconds ago, I never understood where the term "piggy back" came from, but it turns out that it has nothing to do with pigs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggy-back_(transportation)
Interesting, never knew that term..
i was reading too fast, so i read piggy bank instead of back ;D
anyway, great way to test it without having to desolder / cut out a possible good IC !
very clever !
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2148 ram at 7E , 7D , 7K , 7L are the sprites ram ( i think ::))
piggyback them and see of the lines are gone
check also
74ls244 7c , 7m
74ls86 7a , 8a , 7p , 8p
74ls374 7b , 7n
Thanks Robin, seems like the 74... chips are available here for a few forints and I try to find a local source also for the 2148 somehow. ;)
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Thanks Robin, seems like the 74... chips are available here for a few forints and I try to find a local source also for the 2148 somehow. ;)
The easiest way to check the 74xx series is using a logic analyzer.
This kind of "Digi-Tech" is really easy ..
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For the price of a logic analyzer you have 8 money money pcb's :D
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Yes, it's a personal preference, but I never use my logic analyser. Almost all 74 series can be worked out as bad with a scope. For counters & shift registers that are suspect it's quicker to just replace them.
I've heard a comparator also works well and is fast for 74 diagnosis.
Finding 8 Money Money PCB's is a bit of a challenge :)
Paul.
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Talking about scopes.....
Velleman has released a new cheap handheld scope that looks very promising and useful for this hobby. Has much better specs than comparable cheap scopes so far. Operates on batteries and uses regular proves.
I think I put this on my wish list for my birthday (and sell the Hitachi).
http://www.hps140.com/
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You also can use a Multimeter to have a look at the TTL-Level 5V ..
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That little scope is quite nice. Would prefer 2 channels minimum myself ;)
Paul.
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Talking about scopes.....
Velleman has released a new cheap handheld scope that looks very promising and useful for this hobby. Has much better specs than comparable cheap scopes so far. Operates on batteries and uses regular proves.
I think I put this on my wish list for my birthday (and sell the Hitachi).
http://www.hps140.com/
Yeah, nice one, it would be great to learn to use. :D
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Same over here i have two old philips scopes
thinking it ken be handy for the hobby
only no glue how to use them :-\
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I browsed around the forum that is linked on that site and Velleman wrote that they are developing a kit specially designed to do some first experimenting and learning with that scope (but I see no reason why it wouldn't work with another one).
However, the working of a scope and even more what the results on screen actually mean is something you can't simply learn in an evening.... you have to know what the signals should be and compare to what you see on the screen...
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However, the working of a scope and even more what the results on screen actually mean is something you can't simply learn in an evening.... you have to know what the signals should be and compare to what you see on the screen...
I have learned to work with a scope .. And believe me, it IS more than this !
To interpret signals, using devider-heads ... calculate etc etc etc ..
If you are not good in mathematics you can't use a scope completely ..
Didi
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You also can use a Multimeter to have a look at the TTL-Level 5V ..
But it's only good to see if it's stuck high or low or Running.
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It was a 2148 ram, it works perfect by now. ;D
Many thanks for Robin, Paul and all of you for your kind help. ;)
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Cool!
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Great ! :)